There is no intrinsic meaning in signs.

About: #wordshavemeanings - comment 64032

Seth says ...

[...] we are arriving at understanding of what #meaning really is. We humans give meaning to these marks in the sands of our medias. It is all our doing. The marks are nothing without what we do with them. I just like to focus on what we do to give these marks meanings … rather than think that they have them inherantly in themselves.

Comments

Seth says
#WOW i did not expect that my simple true statement …

we give words meanings, they do not “have them themselves”.

seth

could honestly get associated with #pellick and #shit.

mark, do you honestly think that a word has any meaning at all before some person uses it in some context thereby associating it to a meaning?

Si says
👍

Mark de LA says
… for some value of the #birdie WE

speaking for all humans

in your master quote.

Mark de LA says
May the Tower of Babel be with you. #MeThinks not though since speaking in other tongues notwithstanding has already been #done. It is our listenings that is suffering – different ears next time.

( http://tinyurl.com/jck6ur9 )

Seth says
well as i have always told you, you can #OptInBirdie or opt-out of some human consciousness when another speaks for it.

And your notice that “we are listening to these words with different ears” is an astute observation that #RingsTrue

… notwithstanding that “next time” that will still be the case.

Mark de LA says
#NAH ! There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. (comment 64080) notwithstanding – those of you who are brainwashed, hypnotized, channeling other shit, & #suck-up stuff off the Internet & make beliefs for yourself out of it, close your ears to truth etc are neither consciously #OptingIn nor #OptingOut at all – witness elections, wars, & your opinions to start.
#BellyBelly – #PML

Seth says
i’m curious, sounds that you agree: “There is no intrinsic meaning in marks” ? With all the extra drama you put around your comment, i really am not sure.

I changed the question to “marks” rather than #signs because some semanticists include people’s interpertation in the sign.

← the “Yojo” here is called a “mark”

Mark de LA says
Well There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. (comment 64082) – is yet another seth of something & a Nah too! If you are referring to a random string of characters from some alphabet like some of the #hashturds here then it needs some more strings of letters to create the touchstone where you create some meaning out of it. ← for some value of “it”

. By now most of the words in the English dictionary have meanings to English-speaking people however much they congregate in #PilesOfWords & dialects like ebonics, rhyming slang & ghetto talk develop. Dictionaries are only walled gardens anyway. Chinese apparently has 8 major dialects . I thought more, but with communication improvements from the far distant past I suspect coalescing has occurred in the last 100 years . Mutate onward! You might even achieve metastasis .

Seth says
i still don’t know what you are saying.

Let me as you a question, what gives the meaning to the chracter stings in words?

Mark de LA says
There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. (comment 64084) is an ungrammatical #PileOfWords
p.s. maybe SeriTD can interpret sounds into words spelled correctly, but doesn’t have intelligence to figure out whether the words make sense together.

Mark de LA says
Another FYI – words are also spoken & speech is a factor. See origins in RS:
http://wn.rsarchi

ve.org/Lectures/19220802p01.html

The Origin of Speech and Language

A lecture by
Rudolf Steiner
Dornach, August 2, 1922
GA 347

Mark de LA says
Your answer seth is by imitation from childhood, body & soul imitating grown-ups & interacting with their environment digesting & breathing & blood circulation

(via RS above)

Seth says
So how does some composition of characters gain meaning?

eg how does the characters “g” “a” “y” spelled out together in that sequence start to mean something to you?

Mark de LA says
Try reading the thing about speech above & maybe RS & I’ll get back to you when I have

Speech develops first. Parents & schools develop words on paper or written language. Reading & books later enter the picture ….

Of course if you are a Nowbie you will probably not value the past & try to reinvent in the NOW your own abstractia theories.

Mark de LA says
#signlanguage #finger #thefinger somewhat crisped up in this zen, #one-finger-clapping gif:

Seth says
yes speech develops first. babies start babbling.

how does the babbling get meaning associated to it?

Si says
All “past” is “invented in the now” mark. There is only “now”. Everything else is imagined as needed and sequenced according to your beliefs about time and the consistency of it. That is how the reality experience is created … upon your beliefs, even your beliefs about time.

Seth says
what happened in the past actually happened. we represent it in some now. that it is called memory. and as all representations go, it is not the past itself.

and yes, you could say that we were making it up in the now. … but we make up the rpresentation of what happened in the past, and not what happened in the past itself.

your model seems to make the representation of the thing, the thing itself. over here that is called the #MapVsTerritory fallacy.

Si says
Sigh. Any way you can squiggle it around to keep your beliefs on track, the ones you value, I guess. It is just not all that complicated as you are making it out to be! And you can still have your beliefs, and use them, and know that they are just beliefs too … you don’t have to loose your whole life experience just because it was based on one set of beliefs you know.

Seth says
no use in “sighing” about my philosophy, or telling stories about it using your beliefs instead of my own.

my philosophy #HangsTogetherWell over here and appears quite a bit more globally consistent than yours does over here.

Si says
Yes, that is all I can do. You are quite well entrenched. Built yourself a fortress you have. All I can do is watch you rumble around in it … and sometimes that is tiresome. The “sigh” lets go of the tired.

Seth says
… or #MakeShitUp about what is happening over here.

… no use in doing that at all.

but okay … #LetItGo … sign away … then maybe #AcceptAndMoveOn

Si says
Why not? What’s your big thing about that? I see something. You are currently not using the perspective from which I can see it. You don’t even know if it is made up or not. All you know is that you don’t see it … and that you don’t like how it feels to be told to look there. That’s all you know. You haven’t ever opened the door to see if what is on the other side is made up or not.

Seth says
well i have seen memory from your perspective. and i even told you how your perpective is explained within mine ...

you do make up your memories.

but i do not reify my memories, i believe in what happens that we can share.

i do not need to turn the world into my own personal playground. i can have just as much fun and believe that i actually share it with the rest of you guys.

Si says
It’s not like that. Opening the door does not make you loose sharing anything at all, it is the opposite, you gain sharing. Instead of it being mostly just your playground, like it is where you are, it becomes a much bigger shared playground. While you are thinking that happenings are set, and that you and others are all restricted by them, then you actually are restricted in many ways, your hands are tied, … especially in the ways you can actually share with others. You are left with just a few ways to share and interact. There is a whole multi-verse of sharing out there for those who dare to venture into it! It is solid, reliable, consistent, and wholesomely fun!

Seth says
well i would not say that “happenings are set, and that I and others are all restricted by them” …. rather i would say that i perceive what happens relative to myself with the same kind of imigination and courage that you are using. that part of your philosophy would add nothing to the way i #swim. but it has some nasty side effects, some of which i have talked about already, that i don’t need … #KeepingItReal.

Si says
Yes! Those side effects. Finally drilled down! #kudos

They are not as “nasty” as you think, in fact, not at all. The nasties are in your imagination, and based on very specific uncomfortable happenings that happened in your past. They are not actually there, just built by you in your #MindPalace. Probably, to feel safe again when you once did not.

Seth says
The #NastySideEffects have nothing to do with my past … that is another thing you are making up over there to serve your point of view. Rather they have to do with feeling qualia from the point of view of the #mosaic rather than just your own #Egoo perspective. I don’t have all the answers … much is an amazing mystery … so i admit that #IDoNotKnow … but your solution simply does not work for me, contradicts my experience, and does not even feel good to me. But you tell me it is different over there so #nbd … this is how we boogie

Mark de LA says
I answered your question There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. (comment 64110) at #64087 22 hours ago. Go read it.

Mark de LA says
The past is a faculty or result of memory usually a low fidelity recording of the residue of events & experience. Maybe you invent your past, I don’t. eh? nathan

Seth says
and truly i do not understand your utterance about this matter as directly relating to it … and it was not a question … it was my statement.

There is no intrinsic meaning in signs.

seth

refute it, or put it in a different perspective, just as very eloquently as you can. but making it about me or about you is to change the subject.

Si says
#LOL, oh you do mark, even if you deny it. But that is a good thing. If you didn’t, you would be in a world of hurt and need of mercy! (everyone would).

It is good design that our experience is always generated from the point of now, and not actually a worm wiggling through time. Think of how super crazy things would be if people were actually bound, ball chain and mortar, across all time and space, to all the deeds they think they ever did right now!

Mark de LA says
Maybe you invented a different meaning for the word invent .
invent (v.)

c. 1500, "to find, discover" (obsolete), a back-formation from invention or else from Latin inventus, past participle of invenire "to come upon; devise, discover." General sense of "make up, fabricate, concoct, devise" (a plot, excuse, etc.) is from 1530s, as is that of "produce by original thought, find out by original study or contrivance." Related: Invented; inventing.

Memory is low-fidelity for sure – depending a lot on one’s consciousness & interest at the time a memory is recorded & the recorder herself. Some say it is good that one can forget (RS – look it up) . I once watched a movie where the person had no memory but functioned continuously by writing notes to himself on his body.

Seth says
Conversation forked to thought 22006

Si says
Yes, that is a horribly archaic definition! All the ones I see in modern times relate invent to creativity, not uncovering. The idea that we uncover things that exist is very old, alchemy based, and part of the #GameOfThone’s era of our evolution, not modern times … not even outside #LOA circles in modern times.

Mark de LA says
You forgot, nathan, to read the bold words.

must have been your already-always #ageism off inventing somewhere.

Si says
I read them, in context, as I should. You are the one in these parts who #MSM’s everything out of context, even when the rest of the context is right there in print!

Mark de LA says
Haughty shit you come up with dear Neph !

#LOL, oh you do Mark, even if you deny it.

Maybe you can make yourself a god in your own world, but (even if you deny it) you’re not one in mine. Not omniscient either.

Si says
Of course not, you are! For me to pretend to be a God in your verse would be ludicrous! You already hold that title there! #jeeze!

Seth says
hitting some #NastySideEffects here are we

Si says
👍

Mark de LA says
‘tis what happens when you pretend that you know something about another’s internal mind or makeup even though they deny it. Some cults teach one to do that.

Seth says
👍

Si says
Oh, well there now I thought it was Markypoo who was experiencing them nasties! I’ve been haveing a smashing time … and really getting some good work out of all this activity too! Improved about 5 things already for it.

Si says
Hey mark, why do you “pretend” then? Simply know, that’s so much easier and fair to the other as well.

Mark de LA says
Title #hmmm

… only if nothing has any intrinsic meaning which is what the zen people say. But then zen people can get to the direct experience of nothing.

Mark de LA says
There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. (comment 64173) ← one does not necessarily carry over into one’s work.
#kudos Nice going on the improvements.
p.s. I pretend when playing with children. Children pretend when playing with adults. Actors pretend when they play their rolls … etc.

Seth says
My point is that we make the meaning … it doth not exist without our making it so. That is the direct experience of meaning. … and quite Zen enough for the likes of me.

Mark de LA says
Did you make up the meaning of that stop sign ? I suspect it was there before you could drive. One could munge away the word meaning & what it points to & then what would be left? I think perhaps Pavlov had the answer, eh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning #BellyBelly

← I like the double entendre of the #RingsTrue bell.

Seth says
Well I did not make up the meaning of the stop sign, rather i learned it. That meaning was coined way before i was born. Some traffic engineer back probaly in the 20’s associated the meaning of that sign with the graphics of the sign itself. I learned that meaning probably in my 20s when i needed to get a license to drive.

Mark de LA says
Same way speech turns into written words etc. You don’t make them up by yourself. It is nice to have the ideas of others like in a dictionary for meanings.

Si says
Yep. Dictionaries are very nice for the Legal community, Politics, and the continuation of that which will not be mentioned here (psssst 3 letter word starts with R … ends with G)

Seriously, how often does one crack a dictionary to communicate? Unless it is a cross language dictionary, virtually never. People open dictionaries when they want to correct someone, make their own point, take a stance, or defend themselves from the verbal attacks of others.

People do not use dictionaries to communicate, or to learn to communicate, they use them to mis-communicate and abuse the natural process of contextual communication. Think about it, for real dude!

Mark de LA says
There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. (comment 64186) – pretty much a pile of shit typical of a dictionary-denier . A lot of #DictionaryDeniers come forth because they can’t spell or like to munge away the meanings of others when unwilling to face their own ignorance.

Si says
I don’t deny dictionaries at all. I love how they make a great core for automated spell checkers … absolutely! I simply understand what the proper place for a dictionary is in communication. I don’t elevate dictionaries to the status of Communication Gods, and pray to them, and go forth as their holy emissaries bringing the righteous word of the dictionaries to the Godless heathens. That’s all.

Mark de LA says
#hmmm – neither do I. I save myself from putting more words into the pile by pointing & save more arguing to prove my point by using common usage in dictionaries. I am more of a Hemingway than an Artful Dodger

Si says
👍

Si says
One person’s pile may be what another persons rose of poetry grows from.

I focus on getting the result I am going for, not on the meaning someone else thought up, or how many there are. I take “the meaning of your communication is the result you get” quite to heart. What you personally think about my results not withstanding … that’s my business, and my results to account to. Yours are yours.

Seth says
👍

Mark de LA says
Yep that is what an Ego is for & does & what your #Egoo tastes like !
“No man is an Island”! ← nice song
No man is a piece of bubble-gum either!

Seth says
There is another aspect of this that has much more bearing on what we are doing here, especially with #hastags. It is true that a lot of communication happens using words the meaning of which have been associated (or coined) a long time ago. But that does not change the basic fact that prior to the coining (the association of meaning to mark) the sign had no meaning whatsoever. That is all i am really saying.

But this goes far beyond that simple fact. We make up new meaning all the time in our thinking and talking and then assign some phrase of old (or new) words to represent them. We cannot think in this changing #explosion and keep pace with what is happening without doing that. So that if we need to point to a “healthy way of living” we can refer to it as a “natural way” or maybe even “organic” and as we do that and people think those thoughts with us, those strings of characters take on a new meaning.

That is in rebuttal to the meme projected in Wow! Words have meanings to others too!.

Mark de LA says
You #MissedThePoint dearbro & with your jousting may never find it. Good Luck!

Part of the jousting is your desire to grab the coin for new words & saying – perhaps to solidify some kind of immortality – perhaps not.

Si says
Your ego tastes like what I taste like to you.

Mark de LA says
#TuQuoque response snooze ZZzzzz …

use the #hashTurd next time.

Si says
Oh yea, sorry. Last word again. I forget how that is your thing! Sorry!

Seth says
Well mem’s point that “When you use the word ‘natural’ to mean something that is ‘healthy’ any claim that follows is fallacious before your start” is false, if my point is true. Instead what changes is the meaning of the word as it is used differently … assuming, of course, that others match with that new meaning in that new context. I gave an example of that above and elsewhere with the meaning of the word “gay”.

Mark de LA says
Sorry I was going by the Title as topic & point. There is no intrinsic meaning in signs. . Most #beople know the word gay has been co-oped by the sexually extended gender-identity groups viz LGBTQ .

Seth says
Well the title, “There is no intrinsic meaning in signs.”, still #RingsTrue over here. You have said nothing that contradicts it in my mind. Prior to humans associating a meaning to a sign, the sign has no intrinsic meaning of its own. That also applies to how Signs represent → Meaning as we continually change and use our language.

Mark de LA says
Yep, & what rings true for me is over here, Pavlov notwithstanding; which point you missed . Even your co-opting the word ~~signs~~ . (Now point me to Wikipedia or a dictionary to prove your usage instead of the common one

)

Seth says
that was a hypothetical mark … that new usage of “natural” is not yet in the dictionary … or even in Wikipedia … although many people talk about natural (ie: not made by man) to imply healthy. I even think i have heard you do that yourself. But you can use the other example of “gay”, find it in an 1800 dictionary, and find it in a contemporary dictionary, and you can verify that its meaning depends on its usage at the time, and not apriori on its spelling.

I still do not know what point you think i missed. The Pavlov experiment quite bears out my thesis.

I am trying to hear your point, but so far you have put no meat on the bones. The authority of what a sign means might be a dictionary … but that does not mean that when sombody usese it in a context that the dictionary meaning is what it actually represented by the person talking.

Mark de LA says
#argumentative -ness not withstanding – your natural occurred well after this train-of-though started running. Even missing the part (via RS) on speech being the root of language not words on a page. Imitation being the means & context to imitate etc. Not going over it all again. Anyway enjoy.

I am complete with what I have said on whatever the real topic of this item is. I’m #done
Listen to yourself I suspect nobody else wants to except nathan

Seth says
Building and communicating meaning between people is a creative endeavour. Challenging a person’s word usage against a, more that likely out of date, dictionary is simply a excuse not to hear what they are saying.

Mark de LA says
Conversation forked to thought 22014

Si says
👍

Si says
Finally, a dollop of #RingsTrue

There is no intrinsic meaning in signs.

About: #wordshavemeanings - comment 64032

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The Origin of Speech and Language

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