Events underdetermine Truth


There are many stories which can explain the same facts.


#underdetermine


 

assume …

  1. happenings
  2. stories about happenings
  3. matches between them

then you will see that the mapping of the set (2) to the set (1) is one to many.

So as the #stroy changes … as the narrative of your life changes … as the world turns around you … don’t get lost and lose faith as if Truth is being corrupted.  It is not.  It is just that there are so many stories that obtain and you are just discovering another.

 
#RoyStreetCoffeAndTea #facts #truth #events #matches 

Tags

  1. RoyStreetCoffeAndTea
  2. facts
  3. truth
  4. events
  5. underdetermine
  6. story
  7. MakeShitUp
  8. IDC
  9. RWG
  10. stroy
  11. more
  12. agreement
  13. AgreementIsKing
  14. matches
  15. NotKnowing
  16. king
  17. WhoCares
  18. GOB
  19. PR
  20. MtShasta
  21. experience
  22. consciousness
  23. connections
  24. NoneOfTheAbove
  25. MtRainier
  26. CFR
  27. inside
  28. outside
  29. BuddahLied
  30. btw
  31. communication
  32. InsideOut
  33. AlreadyAlwaysArguing
  34. time
  35. true
  36. past
  37. now
  38. future
  39. RingsTrue
  40. RingsTue
  41. Supervene
  42. RingTrue
  43. supervenes
  44. GW
  45. RS

Comments


Mark de LA says
.. but not necessarily that which is true.null

Seth says
well i have a more practicle and tangeable notion of what is bantered around under the word “truth” than you do.   to me it is just the feeling that a story matches something that is be ing.  i get that all the time … i experience it.  i know when the feeling is there and when it is not.  i think your notion is mch more abstract and requires beliefs that i can not justify.  of course we have been all over that again and again.  maybe someday we will see how to talk together and realize our different views.

#truth

Seth says
this topic is really just mathematical.   no emotional impact.   no juice.  no rwg.   just the demonstrable belief that there are many stories for the very same set of happenings.  and each one of them can have the very same matches between the story and what is be ing. so the only difference between the storys is the choce of the person experiencing the matches.  it is her freedom.

#truth #underdetermine #story

Mark de LA says
Your Title doesn’t even make sense! People who have a mungeable dislike for what’s true & prefer stories – any story will do – #MakeShitUp for their own ego purpose – anyway #IDC any longer to ping-pong this one around any longer.

Seth says
do the math with my assumptions about truth as i descibed above … and yes it certainly makes sense.  but you do need to suspend your own view of “truth” to see the math.

Mark de LA says
no math in it.

Seth says
like i said no ego or #RWG here please.   just math!!

Seth says
it is a mapping of one to many.   that is math.  topology actually.

Seth says
look … assume that the only things that are tangible enough to talk about are the #matches themselves.  either three lines go thought a single point or they do  not … that is just math.   then you will find that with the very same set of points, there are many stories that have the same match points.  again we are just talking math here.

Mark de LA says
Declare it to be so & I am sure you will believe it – your story that is!

Mark de LA says
Don’t confuse mataphors & concepts with what is so except in the mind world.

Seth says
okay … if you dont’t want to do just the math … then forget this thought … it is not for you.  but i will not be combining it with ego transactions with you.

Seth says
assume …
  1. happenings
  2. stories about happenings
  3. matches between them
then you will see that the mapping of the set (2) to the set (1) is one to many.

Mark de LA says
The map is not the territory ! Last word surrendering, thrilling : (getting more like your father every day – bulling your way through with your arguments) …. what you resist persists! TR et al said that.

Si says
There are infinite parallel verses. The vibration of your predominate thoughts determine which one you are tuned into. Every single one of those stories is true and your vibration selects the one most relevant for you. Try thinking this way and knowing that all versions are true … and you will soon discover actual examples in your own experience and your experience with others of the true different stories. The only thing keeping you to one thread of experience is your own assertion that there is only one set of true facts. There are many, and we can all experience a large range of them without any loss of cohesion in our reality experience or degradation of our communication and experience with others. That we must share the same external experience with others in order to communicate and play well is an urban legend. It is not true. Just a fairy tail we make up about reality.

Seth says
Well “infinite parallel universes” implies different assumptions as follows …

assume …

  1. many sets of happenings
  2. stories about happenings
  3. matches between them

then the mapping of the set (2) to the set (1) are  many to many.

A far freeer and yet meaningless predicament indeed.   The result of your model is that it casts doubt on all matches for you may be in a different set of happenings than me and hence what you perceive as a match (some single feeling of truth)  could not be a match in my predicament.  It does not function well in a multi personality universe.  Personally i do not think that extra doubt is needed.  All of us sharing one set of happenings is all that one needs to assume (believe) in order to explain how this predicament feels.  The only assumption that needs to be believed is that there are many stories that can “run on” (obtain or explain) the same set of happenings.

If i were to title your version of this thought, i would titel it “Events undetermine Truth” … in other words they corrupt it.  Note the difference in spelling between “underdetermine” and “undetermine”.

Mark de LA says
Nobody can grasp xor experience infinity, let alone an in ∞ x ∞ number of things happening. The most people think/grock about ∞ is #more . This is all your imagination best consumed by the residents of Fantasy Island.

Seth says
i would say that same edge in this same context differently …

That one can experience different stories on the same set of happenings does not necessarily prove that they are infarct different happenings. 

seth

Mark de LA says
Yep for such believers any story is their truth. Snuck ….. not for me!thumbs down

Seth says
well the story i tell is all i have … i think the story you tell is all you have too.  I find the story that you tell me regarding some ultimate authority about what happens to us, incredible.  i cannot believe that story.

Mark de LA says
Your truth, my truth .. how absurd. keeps you separated. all hail otherness.

Seth says
it does not keep me separate to the extent  there are matches between your truth and my truth.

tag #agreement #AgreementIsKing #matches

Mark de LA says
It keeps them separate in that there are two truths? (xor maybe neither).
What would it be like if you abandoned the idea you keep pushing of stories? & hold onto the notion of not knowing .  How would your ego behold the world while doing so?

Mark de LA says
as a byproduct got an orange line slowly accross the page trying to put the emoty there.
null

Seth says
yeah i got an exexpected orange line this morning too as i was sticking a widget on the page.

Seth says
there are two stories … but only one set of matches between them.

i do hold on to the beauty of knowing that i do not know it all … #NotKnowing is #king … and i do not need to “abandon” my stories … i need them to live.   Think about how it would be if there were no stories … no meaning … no human emotional bonding whatsoever ... nothing would matter … #WhoCares would rule the day … what kind of life would that be?

Mark de LA says
Yep, addicted to knowing – I find it is more like playing raquetball – no mindgames necessary – more like:

The Consciousness commands & the body obeys.

 – Peter Ralston of Cheng Hsin – The Art of Efortless Power


Mark de LA says
The latest fun in #GOB is that one identifies with being inside something (mind, body, ….. ) maybe not, eh?

Seth says
Well whatever of which you are conscious, i would call a “story” … so i do not need to abandon my story model to get  #PR’s proposition,  “The Consciousness commands & the body obeys”.   No conflict obtains there.

Mark de LA says
You are not conscious? just a story? nullnullnull

Seth says
i feel no matches in a story that “i am not conscious”.

Mark de LA says
That’s your story & you are sticking to it! null


Si says
Your predicament seth, is simply that you feel that mapping is necessary at all in order to have a well balanced and consistent experience with others. It is not, not at all. My coming home to North Carolina is absolute proof of that. Very little to no mapping between me and my tribe … and yet, the most wonderful and inspirational and well connected and flowing experience of otherness I have ever had.

All that is necessary is that both parties (or all parties) involved let go of mapping and need for common elements of experience … and then, the experiences simply blossom in ways you can’t even imagine from where you are now! True connection with others does not require commonality though it can embrace it. True connection with others only requires authenticity of self.

This is my story and I don’t have to “stick to it”. I am living it, in real time, in real experience. It is not something I am sitting in an armchair, or behind a computer, and contemplating about. It is my life.  

Seth says

Seth says
i don’t draw maps to have experiences with others … i draw them to communicate … so that others will know to what i point … for example here is #MtShasta.   It doesn’t’t matter to me how people create their matches  … there are lots of ways … and lots of different matches … you have pointed to some above.   To me #experience without connected #matches is not the kind of #consciousness which i seek.

Seth says
Notice that i have started talking about #consciousness as the #connections and #matches between people.  If you believe that consciousness is some kind of light which comes only from inside your individual personal be ing, then you will not be able to understand what i am saying.  With that assumption then the story you tell about intention and being responsible for your experience must be quite different than if you assume that consiousness is a word pointing to the interactions of be ings living together.

Mark de LA says
#NoneOfTheAbove – the more abstract you get the farther away you seem to get.  In the old “warmer” – “colder” childhood guessing game vernacular from my perspective you are getting “colder”.

Seth says
Well for example i just experienced being conscious in the sense in which i have been talking here.   After i drank my coffee and did my morning nuptuals i lay back down in bed and closed my eyes … denise had gone intto the office to do her business.   I was quite aware of what i was thinking and the stories that were unfolding in my mind … fun stuff very interesting.   I heard Denise say,  “Are you awake?” waking me us to being conscious of my surrounding … and then suddenly the stories of which i was aware changed to those of our world here together. 

We point at somethng to align our stories … to connect them together … to create #matches.  

Don’t forget, there can be two mountains #MtRainier. and #MtShasta … i say, do not mistake the one for the other … don’t flim flam them around and confuse theaw two different kinds of awareness.

Mark de LA says
Yep, I don’t do that confusing type shit – I make distinctions rather than munges.

Seth says

Seth says
good for you null … but when we talk together … do you think that somtimes those two different signs might get switched around as we communicate and you may think that in some sentence that i write i mean #MtShasta when i say “mountain” and then you respond with something about #MtRainier ?  Do you think that has ever happened?

Mark de LA says
.. again you’re lost in your own metaphor & map.

Seth says
fine … well okay … you don’t feel like looking at the same mountain … well have a nice day.

Mark de LA says
I can’t see a mountain from where I live without going out to the highway & driving a bit. null I have approx 25 more Screws to inventory this morning. Getting tired of looking at dicks & cunts.

Seth says

Seth says
well regardless of where you are, you can go to sleep and still be awake to internal experience … and then you can be woken up to what is happening around you and interact with it.  those are quite different mountains.  yet somtimes in the literature of our dialogue and even elsewhere in our culture, those two different things get all munged up together and get pointed to with just the one word “consciousness”.

Seth says
incidentally if you find any other of CFR’s letters to his mother … those are very interesting.   Especially of late there is interest in military men writing back home descibing their experiences in the war theaters … Denise was saying that the Smithsonian is looking for some of those.   #CFR was in the navy in WWI as a pharmacist … right? … seems he would have written his mother something about that.

Mark de LA says
He was stationed at Annapolis, Maryland at the Naval Academy . I believe his travels outside the country began when he joined AC in Sicily.  His stories in ZisZ tell about shooting Argyrol up the peckers of sailors who had the clap etc. 

Seth says

Mark de LA says
You missed the point of my quote from #GOB – it is different distinction & belief & construct whether you hold that you (~ Ego)  are inside your brain, body, soul, spirit, none of the above etc. For reference here is a nice lady talking about her experiences in Lucid Dreaming:


Mark de LA says
Sometimes your context shades your conversation:

Seth says
mark, All i am saying here is that there are two quite different kinds of consciousness.  One happens when a person interacts with with others,  the other does not require that interaction.   It should be clear, based upon the things i keep talking about,  that for myself, i value the former over the latter.  That is the life i have chosen to live.   Personally i make no judgments how how others should value either kind of consciousness.  But I do not like to confuse the one with the other.  I fear in our dialog here and elsewhere in the culture, that confusion happens all the time. 

My belief that there is this distinction between #inside and #outside consciousnes does not conflict in any way with anything that #PR said in “Events underdetermine Truth (comment 79256)”.   If you can see some conflict there … hey bro, spit it out please !   … by all means … i am all ears.

#consciousness see also #BuddahLied

Si says
I have been communicating with incredible ease with Ruby, Hanna’s 2 year old daughter, with almost no maps and pointers. They simply are not needed to the degree you suggest seth. It’s only the way you learned to do it … not the only way at all. What is primarily needed is simple presence (nowness) and authenticity. The rest, all those maps and pointers you are familiar with, are really just crutches to get around not being present and authentic. Trust me, this is the real truth.  

Mark de LA says
I doubt & mistrust anyone who says they are telling you the real truth – why the need to say so, eh?null

Mark de LA says
Perhaps only a robot (xor an English school marm) would have to diagram a sentence before speaking it out. null

Seth says
useful interaction with others does not necessarily require signs … i never said that it does.  I interacted with mark’s mad dog, Shadow … i would not call it incredibly easy,  mark helped a lot,  so that  over time he stopped threating me with his barks and growls …   Did we use signs? … certainly not in the way that i can talk about #MtRainier with you and even about deeper matters using carefully constructed signs that carry information between us.   Using signs to communicate is one of the things that makes us human … most of us do it quite well and are moving our lives along into ever more complex possibilities.

I can not feel your “real truth” … you can trust me on that just as you do.  On these deeper matters we need to work out signs that we both understand,  just barking your “real truths” at me will not get us there.

Mark de LA says
Being aware of being aware was an interesting bit of PR I read last night before going to bed → consciousness.  #GOB ¶5:62 & 5:63 are heavy

Mark de LA says
Shadow used dog signs vis-a-vis you being a threat: growling & barking.  He got used to you eventually & us together & eventually sensed you as not a threat xor at least OK. He was/is not a mad dog – that being your interpretation – he was doing what the Rottweiler breed of dogs do. Those are his signs.

Seth says
yep there are all manner of signs null… some of them so very direct and basic that we don’t normally recognize them as the signs of a language.  

I call a growl and a bark a sign of anger … a sign of be ing mad.  People and dogs are pretty much the same in that regard.

Seth says

Seth says
no its quite automatic.   we get very facile with the construction of sentences.  agreed.

so what?  what has that to do with with i said above?

Seth says
me i personally dislike such inderect pointers.   have you noticed that they are rarely followed?   When constructing a website it is a well know fact that you loose much more than half of your audience even with a direct hyperlink.  Now add something that requires consulting another source and you will almost always loose the other half. 

#btw i notice that #cfr’s work is riddled with such indirectness … me thinks he uses it to imply a meaning that he cannot even express externally himself.  It is a trick.  Oh sure it illicits the imagination of the audience … perhaps titillates and excites it ...oh great!    But what it does’t do is communicate externally from inside one to inside another.

tag #communication #InsideOut

Mark de LA says
Those are more or less your signs of FEAR!  I doubt she has your human anger at all. ← mostly human thing. Notice she did a lot less with Elaine. Had you got rid of your interpretation it would have disappeared faster. Such things shake hands with each other. 
 lyrics (*)
thumbs upnull

Mark de LA says
Re: Events underdetermine Truth (comment 79341) null – You have a hard enough guessing what is in the mind of another human, let alone crossing species to a dog if it even has a mind. I have at least had ~ 8 rotties since some human tried to rob the back house at Walgrove & steal your Apple II.  ~ 3 of them were bitches . Lots of things play into dog behavior including smell, sound, body language.  Shadow likes human females, they are mostly smaller & smell better & are less agressive.

Seth says

Seth says
… “too”.   just had to finish their song.

Mark de LA says
When all is said & done & the #AlreadyAlwaysArguing pacified a bit one might notice that the words true & truth have different sense to them. Truth is static almost part of the past.  True is current & active being of now. (IMHO which is neither)  Such is why I don’t much care to talk about the “truth” anymore and am more into what is true as that which IS! & not just in imaginary, abstract or personal inside worlds.

Seth says

Seth says
Well sure null finding what story seems true in our historical memory of the past is different process than finding a story that seems true right now.  Then too what happened in the past informs the now and flows into the future.   Sot the scope of my feeling of that which #RingsTrue is variable … er, at least it so seems over here.

tag #time #true #truth #past #now #future #RingsTue

Mark de LA says
Perhaps, may need to consider briefly that the letters in a word or words in a sentence don’t stand by themselves in cause & effect just because they are adjacent or close to each other. 
null

Seth says

Seth says
absolutely null … nothing isolated from all else makes any sense at all, ever.

Seth says
sometimes i think  it is necessary to agree on these underlying edges of what we are doing …
before we can become all high minded and hair up usefully to a grander awareness.  

whatever story we tell about a grander awayness must needs #Supervene on these basic edges and cannot deny them and yet #RingTrue

Mark de LA says
Doesn’t work for me that way. I like Peter’s distinction about distinctions in that if you make a distinction something is there (wherever & in whatever medium) . Extra language in diagrams is just another distinction that requires effort to make distinctions about & exert effort to map it into reality domain – yet one more step to go through.

Seth says
one territory #supervenes on another territory.    The diagrams and maps and language that describe that process has nothing to do with it … those are just academic descriptions about the phenomena which allow us to communicate with each other about it.     this word “supervene” was not even in our  vocabulary back in the early part of the 20th century when GW was forming his views of the world and we were young children growing up … at least  I have never heard #GW or #RS refer to the phenomena at all.  i discovered it in my studies back around 70-80s when it entered the cultural awareness and thinkers found it was useful to notice how one set of processes can be  related to an entirely different set even though they are naively  presumed to be casually connected as just one set.

Again i do not hear anything in #PR’s presentations that contradict this structural phenomena.

Mark de LA says
None of that makes any sense to me – must be abstract. I looked up the word supervene & no bells ring true in your paragraph above having done so. I’ll  bet you could say something that does but you must needs seem obscure for selfie reasons.  Again test that paragraph with the bozos in the Socrates Cafe & see if you can post what they say about it literally or maybe even a video of the moment. ! 

Seth says
i wonder if you know that it does not inform to just say, in a binary way, that something does not work. 

if you were disinterested you could have just ignored the train of thought entirely.  but shucks to get the idea … to draw the distinction … you really would need to delve deeper into the specifics of what i am saying without prejudgments.

Mark de LA says
It is a feedback for the clarity of your communication , that should help, however some just like to talk. null Like I said – try it out on others .

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