Bullying is decay of what we are being together

About: The Climate is always changing - comment 81157

Seth says ...
well, nathan, notice that i am intentionally talking about myself here, for only then i can tell you what rings true over here.   I would not brag about it … that is my judgement for myself …. i can’t see how that even could feel true or false by you, but simply as what i “honestly” tell you about myself.  .   

knowing something of which you are an essential part, and choosing not to actually experience it, is not something that i would brag about either.   #KeepingItReal,   i experience your bullying of mark as decay of what  fastblogit is be ing.  Apparently, if i understand what you are saying above, you quite know that, but do not care.



Similarly i experience #Trump’s #bullying of NFL players protesting against police misconduct as #decay to Free Speech in America.
 

tag #TakeTheKnee #TakeAKnee …

if you care,
sample the erupting boil
in the twitter feed here →

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Comments


Seth says

← Here is a sample of the thoughts that are flying around in #TakeTheKnee


Me i hope that #FreeSpeach continues to flourish in America … undaunted by #Trump’s #decay of it.

Seth says
There is a article in the highly rated WSJ that gives an even handed narrative,  “ The Politicization Of Everything.” unfortunately it is behind a paywall but perhaps the essence of that narrative is reported at Instantpundit here →

My narrative is different. 


The symbols of our nation,  the Star Spangled Banner, the flag, etc, are about what we are together.   They are not just about first responders, and the military.   Those symbols are also about our #FirstAmendment right to effectively speak our mind in public.  The NFL players who #TakeTheKnee are telling us what they think we should be together.  To bully and fire them for speaking out under that banner is the very opposite of what that flag stands.
Hard to get the essence of that paragraph in a tweet … but i think i did it …

Si says
There is a huge difference between bullying and standing up to a bully. I stand up to the bully mark. That’s pretty much all he does is bully. He is very insecure about his life, and his relationship to death, and his perceptions about being controlled by others. That is what makes a bully. I reflect it back … which is the correct way to deal with a bully. Period.

Mark de LA says
The comment is bullying.  I have to respond to it to make it disappear down the news stream.  I prefer to ignore it.  Maybe d’A…… could & should just talk about himself.

Mark de LA says
Otherwise, my dear nathan your comment #CBF xor #CBG …. null

Seth says
sigh … and so the #decay of our working together here just continues null

Mark de LA says
Your obsession with the word decay  tiresomely continues …. #CBF xor #CBG null see my Free Speech null

Si says
I am talking about myself. I am talking about the aspect of myself called mark.

Si says

Si says
Yes seth, please let your obsession with decay fall into decay!

Mark de LA says
probably should use some other name like Nathan, Seven, d’A…… xor anything not my name!

Mark de LA says
Didn’t expect someone so sum to obsess about a liberal buzzword xor meme – #CBG

Si says
You are that aspect mark. Why would I name you something else?

Mark de LA says
It is your own hallucination. But enjoy you pile of whatever #CBF you eat, #IDC

Seth says
come on now nathan  … you are not mark … mark is not you.   #munge’ing those together is your peculiar thingy that nobody out here wants to share.  switching names is confusing everybody and will not help us communicate.

Si says
I’m sorry seth but what you are suggesting simply does not match up with my experience at all. Would you have me derail myself over the same cliff you and Mark are heading for? I doubt it. The people I am around, many many of them and growing every day, understand what I am saying quite well and live it. It is like breathing instead of being smothered.

This is how life works. mark is an aspect of me. I am an aspect of mark. Same for you. I am not going to bury my head in the sand just because that twists your rainbow panties to be in contact with this form of truth.

You see, I am actually trying the things Bashar, Abraham, and many others are saying work and finding out that they do in fact work. I am also seeing that others who try the same get the same results. And a bonus is that the relationships, love, and co-creation between those doing these things is way way better and happier and enhanced from those who don’t … and in fact gets the experiences those others keep saying they want and are not getting.

I am applying science. I am testing hypothesis and experiencing actual results. Others (like you) are only conjecturing what the things I am doing should cause … but what you conjecture is wrong. That is not what is actually happening. It is also predicted that most of those who do not try these new things will have trouble relating to those who do … I see that too … as the way you continuously want me to “be and think and talk like you”. Being and thinking and talking like you and others you associate with do I have done. It gets the results you are currently experiencing, not the ones I am currently experiencing. I choose these … they are so much nicer!

Seth says
i am just talking about the thing about which you proclaimed …
I am talking about myself. I am talking about the aspect of myself called mark.

You are that aspect mark. Why would I name you something else?

nathan
No! mark is not that aspect!

I am just calling to your attention that as being a profound confusion of reference.   What mark does it mark, what you do is you, your reaction to what mark does is not mark at all.  I think that is a grave and profound confusion on your part that you seem to be expecting us to join you in believing.

The other material that you talked about we would need to hair up …
maybe after we understand together what i just said.

Si says
mark is an “aspect” of me. There is no way around that. I talk about Mark the way he is. Talking about “myself” is talking about all that I experience. They are one in the same.

As Buddha said, All is One.

Your the one who is confused. You confuse the one aspect of yourself you call Seth as being “you”. That is just a tiny tiny tiny tiny … part of “YOU”.

Seth says
Your reaction to (perception of) mark is not mark.  I agree that your reaction to mark is part of you related to mark.  But i can not call that reaction “mark”, without introducing a profound confusion of thought.

Si says
I know. I see that. I once had that same trouble. But all it takes is a bit of practice, not only to learn the different speech patterns, but even more important, learn to think “as one”, which is where the difference, the joy, the love, the creativity, and all the rest comes from. Thinking as an isolated singularity is very limited in the choices one has available, in all ways, especially sharing.

Seth says


 

The shiny sword of your Self pride ...




 


and the reaction it produces in others
when yielded against them…

are two aspects of the same spirit.  

Which aspect shall we call you, nathan … which aspect shall we call mark ?
 
 about which one do you care enough to experience?

Si says
Apparently it does produce that reaction “in you” … as predicted by Abraham and Bashar as well. It’s not a shock you have that reaction. I would have that reaction if I kept my thought isolated to a boundary associated with my body too … doing so tends to make one extremely sensitive to the perceived crossing of that boundary by others.

Fortunately, when two aspects of self interact without those separatism boundaries, both aspects respect, and forgive, and unconditionally love each other such that reactions as you suggest above are not even considered, let alone experienced.

Seth says

null but apparently here both aspects do not respect and forgive and unconditionally love each other …
certainly that is also your experience.

Hey, let’s keep it real … #KeepingItReal … nathan you have bullied me here, you have bullied mark here to the profit of you own pride and the detriment of what we can do together here.  It is the very cases where you do not percieve the other side, and stubbornly work against it, that things end up malfunctioning.   Yes i feel that as a wound to what we could have made of thinking domains.   

Oh sure if i could feel as much pride in you as you feel in yourself i would feel like you do and then perhaps i could rationalize it … i could tell the narritive that is was something that seth & mark were doing wrong. 

Who knows, maybe if you actually fixed some of the shit that is not working for me here i might actually feel more of your pride and confidence that you feel in yourself. 

No it is you who are confused.

Si says
There really is no confusion. It is quite simple. You Seth, and Mark, do not think of each other, and of me, as aspects of yourself ... very literally part of who you are and what what it is to be you. Because you don’t think that way, you have a bunch of rules (to make up the difference) which tell you how to behave based on how I (some external entity) treat you. Those rules fire and you feel thusly, as the rule (belief) tells you to.

If you thought of me as just another aspect of you that is part of your story … then your rules would shift, and you would feel, and act, quite differently. I know this because it has happened to me, and I watch it happen to others as they join this wave of understanding. It has not happened to you … yet.

Mark de LA says

Mark de LA says
You guys are wasting your time in this post & conversation. Your ugly picture & cartoon do not attract nor the pile of words you waste thinking to teach each other.
I repeat 

Si says

Si says
Nicely said.

Seth says
Well it is true that i do not consider you to be an aspect of me … or visa versa.

However i do consider you and me as aspects of what we are together.

Si says
Same thing, if you look at it with a wider perspective, instead of from a line drawn around a seperate self and only that. What we are together is the whole. And thus part of a continuum of what you are.

Seth says
no!,  it is part to the continuum what we are.  We need to keep the language consistent. 

There is a separation between you and i … that  is not a fact that i can ignore.  Way too many narratives do not work for me to ignore that fact.  If it were all just me, just one entity,  i would have had this domain purring along like the thingey that we imagined it could be over a year ago. 

Si says
It is very easy to feel unjustly treated when one draws lines in the sand to measure justice against. Stop drawing the lines and the perception of unjust treatment has no place to root.

Mark de LA says
Need a feature to hide an entire thought from my sight & the news stream! I think Facebook has one.

Si says
Sure you can ignore “that fact”. It is only you who are not ignoring it.  

This domain “purrs” exactly according to the story you write. You are writing a story with your thoughts and their preponderance of focus and those thoughts write the story that becomes your experience. All you need to do to experience a different story is choose what you focus upon differently. That’s it. Nothing more is ever required. I cannot change that for you … only you can write your story. Only you can choose what you think about and where you focus your attention. Only those choices write your experience. I have no power over that at all.

Seth says
it is nothing to do with justice … it has to do with how we work together.  that we are not cooperating or even perhaps that we dont feel like cooperating is why this thing has not flourished … it is that we argue and say mean things to each other and avoid agreements.  the lines i draw in the sand is between the cooperation and the incessant self serving  arguments.   

left to itself the separation between you and i and mark is the very beauty of life itself.   it is this other element that has been introduced that is the problem.

Si says
I don’t argue or say mean things. To Mark, I reflect … both good and bad. Today has been mostly good because that is the vibration Mark is mostly holding today.

You I don’t even reflect … I simply explain, not much more … except when you get up on your horse … and then I whip it for you so you get a better thrill out of the ride you are choosing.  

… and so, “stop drawing any lines at all” and see how it goes. I guarantee it will go better for you … there is absolutely no doubt about that.

Seth says


OMG what a beautiful shiny sword of your self love and confidence
 
which you have just wielded against me!

A nice story for you indeed,
i suspect you will stick with it.

 

Si says

Si says
That feature is built into your reality experience. You only need to activate it. Then you will be able to use it for all news coming at you from anywhere … that’s right, even news about Hillary … it even works on your TV.

Si says
Yep. It’s a better story. As my high school English teacher once told my class (and has helped shape my whole life) … “there is no story that is beneath us or to little or to boring or too mundane or too ugly. If we think one is, it only means we are not yet up to speed with the story. One day, we will be able to read it and take it in and understand it’s importance.”

Seth says
yep that story is great for you !
How is it working for us together?
Honestly!

Si says
It’s working fine on this side.

Anytime you want to apply the scientific method and find out what that is like, come on over.

Seth says
yep, like i said, you tell the story of your pride and confidence quite convincingly to yourself …
the story seems to fucking works over there.   We totally agree on that.

Over here the story is contra factual … which can be scientifically verified by an objective observer.

Si says
Any observer in your experience is just you.

But hey, works for me, works for others who try it.

Doesn’t work for you … because you don’t try it. (reasons notwithstanding)

I guess we do agree.

Seth says
Hey nathan, i believe what you are doing over there in your Yes group is working.

But I do not believe it is working for the reasons you are telling  here.

Nor do i believe your story of why it is not working for you here.

As far as i can tell, it is not working for you here because you have no will or intention of cooperating with this enterprise.  it is just too different and apart from your own life.  You can not share it with us.  You cannot make it your own.  The narrative can be just that simple.

Si says
Oh okay. Apparently you have it all figured out. I am interacting with you exactly the way you desire. The right person is president. Mark interacts with you exactly how you would choose for him to. Your business is perfectly suited to your interests. You have the most interesting friends who challenge, interest, and excite you synergistically exactly as you have wanted since you were a young child. You get up every day excited for what this day holds and go to bed each night deeply satisfied by the experiences you had that day.

I am so glad you found your way here.  

Seth says
Well okay, my experience of the drama of my life is quite what i have written.  I null it. 

But that i desire you to bully me and mark here, to the decrement of our common endeavor, and the aggrandizement of your personal ego, is not something that i have intended or desire to write into this drama.  That, my dear friend, is all your doing.   Perhaps you should take responsibility for it yourself.

Mark de LA says


Seth says

Si says
Okay then. If my character in your life story is not behaving as you would like, then you can rewrite that character. I have supplied you with the tools to do that. All that is required is your own imagination and just a little bit of skill with the tools.

Blaming me for your experience is not one of the tools. That “tool” will only write more of the same experience you don’t want into your story.

Si says
Apparently mark, the character “Q” in Star Trek TNG did not have enough imagination to write a story he wanted to experience … hence he was dissatisfied with his omnipotence. I don’t have that problem. I have a great imagination. You?

Mark de LA says
Focus on story-telling is not likely to ever yield a sense & feeling of reality.  I remember the grand ether-sniff experience that Seth & I had where what was happening seemed like it was just a record playing somewhere & at any moment some being could pick up the needle & it would all disappear.
Occasionally I get a feeling I am not in my body; sure I can test it & wiggle my toes or do something but I just wear the clothes of my body occasionally to do shit I scope out ahead of time although sometimes , like taking a shit , it munges together when I have to service it.

Si says
So then you define “reality experience” as “that which happens to you” mark?

Mark de LA says
nope! – mostly direct experience.null

Si says
Okay mark. As you probably know, I know that reality is one’s experience of it. Therefore reality experience is what one is experiencing now. Or more simply put, that which is. So for me, the phonograph experience “is reality” … it is what is when it happens to be experienced … including all emotions accompanying it how ever slight. 

You seem to have some much more conditional definition for reality experience than you are indicating when you say “story-telling is not likely to ever yield a sense & feeling of reality”.

Mark de LA says
normally without effort I have indirect experience with the story running & loosly attached, with a direct experience there is no story – it all just IS!

Mark de LA says
Additionally, if there is a story & I am aware of it such tells me it is NOT real. The story telling is about the past!

Seth says
you move yourself, not me.  your proposa, nathan,  that i can “rewrite your character” is an absurdity.  It breaks just about everything i know and have experienced  about the sovereign free will of an individual being living his own life.  



Not only that but i have watched people try  it and the friction and hate that ensues after it gets exposed for the farce that it is.  

I want no part of it.

Seth says

Si says
Makes sense. I don’t see how that has any bearing on what you call story-telling though. The story seems to be what one is experiencing. Whatever that is, it is reality. Anything else would have to be classified as imagination … as it is not something that is being experienced.

Si says
Well yes I agree seth. We each have sovereign free will. If I could write your experience (your reality), that would be simply wrong of me to do. I write my experience, not yours. You can rewrite your experience of my character in your story any way you like. That is all still your experience, your free will. If you tried to rewrite my experience for me … I would be quite pertubed, to say the least~!

Si says
”Additionally, if there is a story & I am aware of it such tells me it is NOT real” ~ mark

I don’t tend to make such assumptions. They are hard to verify and prone to error. I simply assume that what I experience is “real”, and what I don’t experience is “not real”. Seems to work out very well.

Seth says
“You can rewrite your experience of my character in your story any way you like. ” ~ nathan

Well not actually, if i am honest.   If i am honest, then I can only write those stories of my experience of your character which correspond to the facts that i sense from outside of my being.  For example if i sense the wound that you create in my body by wielding your sword, i cannot honestly write your character as a being who would do me no harm. 

Mark de LA says
What’s real has been a question around for a long time. If your head is being chopped off at the time  … who knows? Does reality go with the head or the body?  I keep the question open. One can just go on & ask then ask what is it that I am experiencing : thus ignoring the word reality.

Si says
If you were honest seth, then you would honestly notice how all circumstances, in your experience, arrange to match up with the propensity of your thoughts, no matter what your thoughts, no matter what the circumstances. One has to become blatantly honest with oneself to see this … but they invariably will see it if one is able to be that honest with their own experience to a very intimate degree.

Si says
I say reality goes with the current experience, whatever it is in respect to the experience of the head and body mark. Then the question is no longer open.

Don’t know what you mean when you say “ignoring the word reality”. When I read words, I have an experience. That experience IS reality. Not sure what else you mean by “word reality”.

Mark de LA says
My questions don’t come with words first – I have to give them clothes.

Si says
When I have a question I ask. The answer either comes directly, as a direct thought experience, or indirectly as a material experience that inspires the answer as a thought experience. The answer is the clothes. I don’t personally give my questions clothes. I give clothes to my story, writing it as I desire using the tools that easily allow consciousness to focus thoughts that make specific desires become things. That is what I call “writing my story”.

Seth says
oh sure,  the preponderance of my thoughts do effect the narrative that i am acting out and what i experience. That is me telling my story.  But i am not the only one here.  Others, you for example, are doing the same thing.  I do not live in your #solipsism world, nathan.  Others effect me and my story, and i effect them and their story.  That is the drama that we are writing together on this Earth.

Si says
Yes seth. You write what you experience and I write what I experience, with our thoughts. As you say, we each have sovereignty. Yes, there are others, and those others inspire what we each experience. I don’t see the problem. If you want a different experience, simply use your thoughts and your imagination to put into it what you want.

Seth says
you just missed the point, nathan.  oh sure you have described the situation adequately in Bullying is decay of what we are being together (comment 81328), and i agree.  But i still do not write the things in this drama that you do that effect me and my experience.  I only act out  how i respond to them.  Your actions in this drama are still your responsibility and not mine. 

And i agree … there is no problem … er, until you cut me.  Better that we cooperate and get something done.

Si says
You write your experience. I don’t write that I cut you. You write that by having thoughts that are vibrationally aligned with that kind of experience. The character representing me in your experience then provides a match to that kind of experience. There are a lot of versions of “me” out there for you to line up with in your experience. Which one you experience is solely dependent on the propensity of your thoughts before your experience happens. You could as easily pass by me in the night as experience me cut you with my sword.

Seth says
If you cut me, you do that … not me writing that you do it … not me attracting your action by my vibration.  Otherwise you do not exist as a soverign being at all …  and are merely a figment of my imagination.

Si says
I exist. I assure you of that. Yes, if you experience me cutting you, then “I” cut you. No way around that. Did I experience it? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on where, in all the possible variations of you and I, my attention is focused. Same for you. That you and I experience the same circumstances is not a requirement of reality, never has been. In fact, it rarely happens … which is why people delight so much when it actually does!

Seth says
well if we are swords length from each other and you wield the sword and cut me, then both of us will experience your action from our own points of view.  If you  tell me a story that you did not experiences it at all, then i will believe that you are telling me and yourself a lie.

This is real life that we are sharing together,  not some SciFi world concocted to justify your philosophy.

Si says
The point is, I don’t write that. For me, it is imagination. I am not experiencing that. If you write that into your experience … then yes, you will have to write that I am lying to make your experience seem consistent to you in the manner you expect your experience to unfold. I have much more freedom in the manner I allow experiences to unfold now that I realize that there are many possible circumstances available … and I select the one I experience based on my point of vibrational attraction.

If it is experience, then it is real. I agree. After all, reality is one’s experience of it.

Seth says
huh?  It is obviously a conjecture that you would swing a sword and cut me.   Conflating  that conjecture with my imagination is not going to get us closer to understanding this together.  If you prefer we can talk about something that actually happened on which we can agree on facts. Something you did or i did … doesnt really matter on which side one stands … the predicament is symmetrical.   But i doubt that the extra ego defenses that will naturally crop up will help us focus.

Now i start my evening duties and so if this continues it will continue much later.

Si says
Your right, it doesn’t matter. It would be the same no matter what subject and circumstances you choose.  Some subjects you have more thought momentum on … so your experience of them feels more real to you. That is the only difference between me cutting you with a sword, and me disrupting your goals for FBI. The only difference. And you could experience me cutting you with a sword too, if you would invest the same propensity of thought into the experience. If you would work to give that thought the same amount of momentum as you are giving this thought.

Seth says
lol … no that is not the only difference.  some thought subjects have corresponding sensual experiences from outside my being that can be shared by others … and some, like the thought experiment of the sword and the cut, do not.  i do not buy the assumption, embedded in your words, that the natural world is all just something which is createdor or can be molded by thinking.  

but, shucks, that is a nice little SciFi story.

Si says
Any degree you want seth. Physical experience is not a boundary condition, but only a continuum of a quality of experience. Reality is experience and there is no limitation on experience. If you simply focus on me cutting you with a sword for more than 68 seconds, at least once a day, within a month you will experience it to every degree you have been thinking and more.

But you have to think about it more than you think about the idea that it doesn’t make sense or is not possible … or you are not giving it propensity … you are stopping it’s momentum as much as starting it. If you do it, it will happen. The universe cannot withhold from you that which you give thought momentum to … it is impossible … and you can verify this.

Seth says
i can go along with, “Physical experience is not a boundary condition, but only a continuum of a quality of experience” … i do not like breaking experience into physical world and mental world either.

But that was not the distinction that i drew.  I said sensual experience sourced outside of my being which can be verifiably shared by other beings. 

Seems that you suddenly started talking about something else in a different ontology … that neither of us have adopted.

And no, if i “think for 68 seconds a day for a month, i will still will not sense that you cut me … unless we travel to meet and you actually do”.  … but sucks if i have a vivid imagination i might even imagine it.

Si says
I don’t distinguish between physical and sensual, that is all. Senses are physical.

Whatever circumstances are required for the experience you give thought momentum to will happen. As in Richard Bach’s book Illusions, he only thought about a blue feather without context … so when he experienced it, it was on the logo of a milk carton on the table. But there is no limitation to circumstances. The more you include in your thoughts as you give them momentum, the more will be in your experience when you experience it. It will happen.

Seth says
yeah the more i focus in detail on something the more it tends to happen.  the quality of focus is tantamount.  most of us have experienced that phenomena in our lives. 

You carry that known phenomena to extreme cases where it does not work.  For example the cut above.

It is not the focus that makes it happen … it is the effect of the focus on my actions that tunes my being to move to the possiblites and activate them with others who are in sync with that focus.  No SciFi story necessary … just practical experience in living this human life.

Si says
Perhaps that is part of the mechanism. I cannot say for sure. What I can say for sure from repeated personal experience is that there is no limitation on what can happen and to what degree. It is not that some things can happen and others can’t. What is experienced and how fast it comes is only dependent upon how much unconditional air time is given to that thing in our thoughts.

How much we are able to give unconditional air time to a thought is regulated by our current matrix of beliefs about what is possible on that subject. If a belief is in the way, it can be changed, and changing it will have an immediate effect on quality of thought air time we can apply … and it will happen … it will be experienced, and the depth of that experience will depend only upon the depth of our unconditional thoughts about the thing before the experience.

This is the basic blueprint of experience. If one is honest and objective, one can find this blueprint in every experience. The blueprint is only limited by beliefs, nothing else. The diversity of interacting thoughts is infinite within beliefs … hence reality experience is so incredibly rich and diverse.

Seth says
well that is starting to hang together better over here.  i have not experienced your “no limitations” and for me to believe that you have such powers,  i would need independent objective sensual verification.  Your anecdotal stories of that power do noting to convince me.  

My own experience is that i can do something large in the world, only when others and the natural world also collaborate … er are in tune with my intentions.  And since my own focus just effects my own actions and feelings and not the others or the natural world, it happening the way i intend is dependent on the focus and actions of others … which sometimes happens with them and sometimes does not … just like it does with me.

Si says
Notice all the beliefs evident in your thoughts you are relating. You have beliefs about evidence of powers, beliefs about how things happen in the world, and beliefs about there being something tangible of the world beyond what you experience (even though you have no evidence that anything at all exists beyond your experience).

The more you operate outside of those assumptions, the more you work only from what you actually know, your experience, the more will hang together.

Seth says
yep.  belief is a very strong force … no doubt about it.

but believing things which do not correspond to the natural world will not change the natural world to conform to my beliefs.  For example if i just believe that i can fly, and with not other mechanism in place, jump off a tall building,  gravity will accelerate my body and crush it against the ground … my strong beliefs to the contrary notwistanding.

Si says
Notice that both of those things are beliefs. Belief that the natural world will not change with thought, and belief that one cannot fly without additional natural world means. There is actually recorded evidence that a few people have “flown” without natural world means. One is a documented case of a parashooter who’s shoot did not open and who landed lightly on his feet. There are others. But those evidences will not be able to grow in your unconditional thoughts as long as you have a matrix of beliefs suppressing them … and so your experience will only be of humans not flying, even if your neighbor flys over your house every night on a broom, you will  never witness it, never look at the right time, because your beliefs filter those experiences.

You only know the reality experience though the filter of your existing beliefs. The experience itself is unconditional and infinite in what is possible.

Seth says
@Nathan, i quite know when i embed a belief in what i say … i notice it long before you do … you do not need to keep pointing it out.

Your narrative above is that just that, a story.  It has not changed any of my beliefs. … and shucks it is kind of repetitive … as-if when you say it enough times you will, by your philosophy,  make it so.  But that has limitations over here … and i will continue to believe it has limitations over there as well untill i get independent objective sensual verification … not just another story.

Si says
Of course. And notice that the particular beliefs you have serve to regulate your ability to ever gain independent objective sensual verification. It’s a closed and self maintaining loop.

But on the other hand, every time one hears of something outside that loop, and thinks about it, how ever small compared to the thought momentum to the contrary, it has a cumulative effect. Ever notice that when you hear something enough, at some point, it starts to make sense? Right now you fully feel the nonsense of my words … but every time you let the ideas run through your thoughts, a little more of that pathway is carved out … and when enough gets carved out by your thoughts and a chink appears in the closed loop, it is like a dam breaking … a sudden shift in consciousness.

Mark de LA says
nathan & seth ….
Free yourself & get rid of beliefs ! Don't be a BELIEF robot - M.R.

Si says

Seth says
null yeah all of that rings true over here.  it is a good description of how some beliefs can change … it  does conforms to my experience as well.

But that does not imply that your beliefs conform better to the natural world than do mine … regardless of how often you repeat them.   My beliefs about what happens in the natural world that we share get tested against my senses … not some other person’s story.  My beliefs about what happens in my private world that we do not share, i make up myself … that is my story … that is my art … that is the drama of my personal life.  My beliefs in those two domains of life work differently over here.

Si says
Notice that my beliefs say that the natural world is an experience and is the direct result of a set of beliefs, and that your beliefs say there is a natural world to which your beliefs are best when they conform to it. Notice how your version creates a self maintaining loop. If one believes that there is something out there that beliefs must conform to, then the experience must be of something out there creating beliefs and around it goes … instead of that the beliefs one has create the experience out there where there is geometric symmetry to the infinite, instead of the symmetry of a circle.

Fortunately, thoughts are cumulative, and thus beliefs can eventually change even in the self maintained circle model … for if not, evolution would not happen, and obviously it does.

Seth says
Yep i believe the natural world is apart from my thoughts and is not created by my thoughts.  It existed long before i started thinking and will be around long after i stop thinking.  I can share that world with others.

I also observe that your “version of to the contrary” is creating a “self maintaining loop” over there, just like mine is creating over here.

Incidentally my subjective experience of the natural world which we share can appear to work more like your story goes.   But my subject experience of that is only one of many … and should not be confused with what happens objectively for all experiencers.

Seth says
well i am not so very sure that is good advise, mark.

Mark de LA says
Notice how you folks treat your beliefs as prized possessions, like your selfie or ego, that you share often with others as if they are worth something to others.
Free yourself & get rid of beliefs ! Don't be a BELIEF robot - M.R.

Si says
Current beliefs are just part of one’s evolving story mark, they change.

Seth says
well like  nathan  i believe beliefs should be flexible … and not fixed in stone … regardless of how they are established.   but i don’t buy that it is even possible to live a pertinent life in this world sans beliefs. 

Beliefs are an essential part of consciousness and awareness itself.  Take the former away, and the latter will tend to disappear as well.

Si says
It seems easy to say there is a loop over her seth, but I don’t see it. Not of the same nature. Please be more specific.

Obviously just being confident about something and repeating it is not a belief loop. It is simply carving a thought path. A belief loop happens when a set of beliefs creates a reality experience which then requires those same beliefs in order to maintain consistency … hence anything outside those beliefs is not able to be experienced. It is saying “I believe it because I see it” rather than saying “I see it because I believe it”.

Mark de LA says
As you folks munge away truth & reality to the thinnest shareable residue of what you call experience notice how warm & fuzzy you feel about said beliefs & stories:
null

Seth says
it is the same kind of loop over here that you have over there.   the more i think a thought, the more it rings true … of course i keep editing it to make it ring truer and truer … but that usually changes just the languag in which the thought is expressed, and less frequently the thought itself.

over there you keep repeating your thoughts and beliefs and the more you do the more they ring true to you.   As far as i can tell the same thing is happening on both sides of this conversation.

if we were being scientific and testing our beliefs against our senses, then there would be less of a loop on both sides of the fense.  but most of these subjects are about the class of beliefs that people just make up or assume or get from gurus or politicians etc.  those, i agree, work more like you are describing.

Mark de LA says
Conversation forked to thought 24552

Si says
All of that seems to be saying what I say, which is that reality is dependent upon beliefs and is one’s experience of it … rather than what you said above, which is that there is a reality independent of one’s experience of it. If one can hold thoughts and thus they become beliefs and thus reality reflects those beliefs … that is all I am ever saying.

Seth says
You have embedded your assumptions in the words you are using.  As such, sure they ring true.

Your reality is your experience … plane and simple.  That is the way you have been talking.  That is consistent with all that you have said … as far as i can tell.   And i can certainly agree with and use that definition.

So now  compare your reality, (your experience), with what happens independent of your experience.   If you believe that there is nothing that happens except your experience, than of course, when i talk about that your belief structure will go tilt.

So your assumption or mine … you go in your loop … and i go in my loop.  Same thing is happening on both sides of this converstation.

Mark de LA says
https://www.facebook.com/bandsmer/posts/2192462640846209  

Si says
I don’t have an “experience independent from my experience” seth. LOL  

Whatever you are comparing there, it is something outside the very definition of the words … your experience to your imagination perhaps?

Seth says

Mark de LA says
Of course not, DOUBT is your currency keeps the flow of #AlreadyAlwaysArguing & meaning going.
Try this one on. Hugh Hefner died yesterday at the ripe age of 91.  Some say he died an empty & meaningless life, but I say that at least he must have died with a huge smile on his face!

Seth says

i compare my experiences to those of others via my senses. 
the more i do that with people with whom i am in tune, the better and better it feels. 

seth

and your are right, i don’t experience that which i don’t experience null.   but that does not imply to me that things do not happen which i do not experience … that does not imply there is not a world which exists apart from my experience.   i don’t know how your brain gets that kind of belief.  it is certainly not logical.

Si says
… and it is not logical to assume things outside what one has an experience of. Any such assuming is based on imagination. It cannot be otherwise, for it is not in experience. The “experience” in all such cases is making something up based on stories of others, at best. And that is imagination.

I stay away from “what implies what”. That is just a cat chasing it’s tail in situations like this. I stick with what I know … and that is what I experience. And I know that anything I think that is part of my experience is my imagination. It’s a good solid and very logical place to start from.

Not sure why you are buying into the old and long standing fairy tales that people have been imagining and then believing … without any sensory based evidence at all!

Seth says
others say that Hefner revolutionized a particular kind of media in the 60’s  and even lived according to that philosophy.  many people were touched by the drama and story of his life.  I would not call that “empty & meaningless” by any stretch of the term.

Seth says
Yep there is no logic in my assumption that things exist apart from my experience of them.  
That is an assumption i make on Faith alone.   Just like your assumption to the contrary.

implication is one of the mechinisms used to connect the dots between the signs we use in language. 
Without it just please just record signs alone,  with no stories connecting them.

Si says
Ah, but that IS the difference seth. I don’t have to have faith about what I experience, it is my experience, and I validate it by experiencing it. The very difference IS that you have faith, and only that, in that there is something other than your experience.

I did need to have faith in order to begin my journey. I needed faith to stop believing in anything else and to start relying on what I experience as reality. That did take a leap of faith.

But now I don’t need faith. Now what I perceive is well proven and flows forward with confidence. I think and it is so. I see it from every angle and experience it directly, no faith needed at all. Once I let go of the idea that all that stuff I was imagining was a real thing outside of my experience, took that leap of faith, then after that faith was no longer required at all.

It takes faith to believe in an absolute shared reality because one can only imagine it. It does not take faith to believe in what one experiences and to see that what one thinks becomes experience. Those are both direct experience, no faith required.

Seth says
… and every time i experience something new null that i have never experienced before and that i can imply logically existed prior to my experience, it reinforces my belief that many things actually do exist independent of my experience.

Mark de LA says

Si says
… as you say “imply logically existed” … more imagination. You don’t know it existed, you can only grab a logic train and “imply it existed”, that’s all. And every time you ride one of those imaginary trains of thought it reinforces your belief about those imaginary things … this is the nature of building a belief.

Implying what is beyond your experience, building a construct and having faith in it, and borrowing constructs others are using, is how you got where you are now seth, even though where you are is only supported by faith. That it “feels good” to find indicators of where you are, and share those indicators with others who took the same train, is simply human nature. It feels just as good to do the same where I am, and would feel just as good to you if you were here … except that if you were here your feelings would be based on experience, not faith.

Si says

Seth says
yep, …

and your feelings are based just as much on faith (assumptions) and then logical implications filling in the dots of your narriative as are mine … and mine are based upon just as much experience as are yours. 

if you examine the perdicament between us objectively unbiased by your own ego,  you may come to the conclusion that the things that really matter to the survival of what we are doing here, are those on which we agree and can share. 

Alternatively there is no being in us being together.   Those assumptions and narratives that are only in me and not in you … and those assumptions and narratives that are only in you and not in me … go nowhere in a drama that we enact together, … especially when they fight and destroy each other and the being that we are together. 

eh, nathan ??


Seth says

Seth says

Si says
You ask? Well I say no, absolutely not. All of that is just your current story. A mix of how you want to feel with all the imaginary indicators you have accumulated over your lifespan and come to believe will satisfy those feelings.

I say there are many other stories … and one in particular that allows a person to consistently connect desires with actual experiences, and without faith or imaginary experiences. It takes a leap of fath to go out on that limb and find out what is there, that’s all.

Seth says
Well, nathan,  what you just said  is an excellent example of exactly what i have just said null.  

We agreethat is just my current story.  A mix of how i want to feel with all the imaginary indicators i have accumulated over my lifetime and come to believe”  … and we even agreethere are many other stories”. 

Now if we could just agree that  proposition is just as true when the subject is you and not me, then our thinkings could progress together as one … and could be acted out together … and would survived together. 

I don’t know whether you noticed that my thesis here is a bit novel and has not been commonly understood by most people or frequently spoken about … perhaps not even by you.  It is actually 99% straight forward #LOA philosophy.  It focuses on the positive aspects of thought carrying   thinking forward.  It applies that to the ecology of groups of people thinking together, rather than focusing just on a single individual … usually just yourself.

I hesitate to say it, but this #story  might be just a bit deep sum, and unusual to think ...
especially if you have not also come to think the same thing yourself … then, of course,  it rings almost trivially true.
So please avoid the usual momentum of your past stories when responding to it.

Seth says

Mark de LA says
#story – every time you folks use that word story I think of something I would rather read than what you write, anything at all,  like Doctor Seuss






null

Seth says
#stories are just the thoughts that you tell yourself.  I am sure you have them too.

Mark de LA says
Nothing real everything is a #story for you, dude! Keep that #DoubtThingy going !

Seth says
… that is your #story not mine. That is frequently where we get into trouble here.  
Tell your own story!

Mark de LA says
Yep #samo-samo variation on the #RWG – not to be confused with real #conversation except perhaps : babble – what you folks do to protect the rightness of your own material so that nobody else need accept what you say for your ego to lay claim to your words.null

Seth says

Well if we can agree on parts of our different stories, then those will serve as #anchors in “real #conversation”.   The longer we converse with good will, the more common anchors we will find, and the more our stories will converge … to become just our story together.   I say, focus on the common anchors, not all that disagreement.

Mark de LA says
Words are rarely pure enough & drag with them a whole bunch of baggage from the synonym pile as well as individual anchors.  Where you & I disagree a lot is your use of some part of a word one way (e.g. being)  ignoring what part I am using of it & visa-versa.  Then after that along come the memes, mostly for humor-sake & the #agitprop of the M$M & partisans & the swamp opens & swallows everything. 
Louisiana example:

Seth says
i actually believe that when we use the word “being” we are talking about the very same thingies.
But i agree, you obviously attach some assumptions (& perhaps experiences) to what your refer to as “being”, which i do not.  It might be useful someday for us to tease out those assumptions.  Alternatively we can just choose to believe that we are talking about the same things and progress from there … i am sure the differences  will wash out eventually with good will.

tag #being

Mark de LA says
Unless yours encompasses all of this, not just one part, we are talking at odds with each other.

I logged yesterday:
  • reading Culling – note his retirement instruction focuses on who you want to be rather than what you want to DO or have.  Michael Hadley in his Thursday night classes xor Tiger/Dragon seminar series said “There is nothing you need to do/have in order to be a great tennis player” i.e being has nothing to do with having or doing.
& of course Peter Ralston wrote a whole trilogy capped off (for now) with:

Seth says
well i agree, ownership, “having”,  has nothing to do with being. 

But for me, shucks, being without doing wold be like white with no black.

But, as we have observed before, you see this as timeless changeless existence …
i see this as dynamic change.
I really do not thing that this is an XOR situation, static timeless being, never changeling,
versus everything is dynamic relational change.
I think it is more like two sides of a coin … an elephant’s trunk versus it’s ear.
We get the best of both.

Mark de LA says
XOR none of the assumptions you riddled your comment with have anything to do with what I described in my comment Bullying is decay of what we are being together (comment 81435) above it null .  None of that is precluded from a human being experiencing life & the essence of being doesn’t need any of them.  Raffi, an anthroposophist , invited by me to one of Michael Hadley’s Tiger Dragon seminars said after the introduction that he interpreted the word being similar to what RS calls spirit. But, again RS would’nt interpret the word spirit as in the materialistic age as the excitement of high-schoolers identifying with the home team’s football team winning a game. #TeamSpirity

Seth says
i would call #TeamSpirity a being when it does exist.  

I have heard the word “being” used frequently, as i just did, to mean “existing” with the function of distinguishing some specific thing from what it is not.  You seem to use it the same way but you just associate different assumptions about what exists.

Mark de LA says
… rather I cast aside assumptions … i.e.
Free yourself & get rid of beliefs ! Don't be a BELIEF robot - M.R.

Seth says
… so he says just as he tells of another belief null

Mark de LA says
What belief specifically – 
Dear Bro, being a #ContradictionMachine does not communication make.  An AI robot could easily stand in for such responses.

Seth says
Your belief that you “cast aside assumptions” is the specific belief that i mention.

Mark de LA says
Strange FB came up with this pointer to P.1716 which I posted 4 years ago.  It just so happens to be the Fall equinox line 1 recently obtained. It is very apropos of the these times yet again.

Mark de LA says
Such is not an belief.  It is an assertion. Try harder with standard English.

Seth says
well in this context i make no distinction between a belief and an assumption.  In this context i see no distinction between what those words refer that makes any difference.  If you can make a shareable difference , please do tell me what it is so i can integrate it with my thinking too.

Mark de LA says
Yep, I agree!  You munge words together so that you can sup & sip freely of the qualia associated with the words “I’m Right!” null

Seth says
Huh?   I asked for how you distinguish them.   I asked you to break them apart.   I already know that i do not distinguish them in the context in which we are talking in any useful way.

Mark de LA says
I’m going to heed P.1716

Si says
I don’t see your story as useful, however quaint and nice feeling it seems in theory and how much you seem attached to it. I don’t see you getting results with it. I don’t see anyone having gotten good results with any of the flavors of that story that have been tried over the last thousands of years.

I am actually getting useful results with the story I have, which is nearly the opposite of your story. I am living in a volatile environment that is evolving fast and having the kinds of experiences with others you (and many people) say they want … and only getting those results by telling the story that we each create our entire reality experience. Every time I forget that, my experience with others degrades, and every time I remember to focus through that perspective, my experience with others blooms and comes into deeper and satisfying focus … for me, and for them.

It is not about agreement, and not about theory, and not about what sounds good or the math … it is simply about which story works, about actual results in real experience in real time. You can keep honing your story if that is what you want to do, as you have invested a lifetime in it … in the mean time, I am getting the results you say you want to experience, and more, with my story. Maybe my story sounds good on paper, maybe it doesn’t to you. What it does do is actually work. It’s the real deal, in real time, in real experience, to get the results that nearly everyone says they want out of life, and out of relationships with others. That is useful.  

Mark de LA says
#UsefulStories in Bullying is decay of what we are being together (comment 81507) – similar in taste to #UsefulNews = #FakeNews – #NiceToKnow

Si says
To each their own. After all, you are getting the experience you want, right? I would not want the experience you are having … but you have invested a lifetime in honing that story. It is either exactly what you want, or you are unsatisfied.

Useful as I see it is a story that generates the kind of reality experience my heart longs for … which happens to be the same kind of experience most everyone says their heart longs for too … and happens to be what I am getting out of living “my story” based on #LOA.

Nice putting this #OOB thread over here #BTW.

Mark de LA says
XOR you have invested a lifetime in the stories you are writing & a lot of Ego too!  xor #EGoo anyway.
Those who choose the paths of truth & enlightnment often have to abandon the utility component but of course that’s not your shtick , is it nathan ?

Si says
To me, they are the same. What my heart wants is enlightenment … and I know I am on that path by the feeling of excitement.

I don’t necessarily think they are the same for all people. Lots of people (me included in my early life) are not in contact with their own inner guidance, don’t really know what their own heart is saying when it speaks, and don’t have much of an examined idea of what excitement really feels like and how it is different from thrill.

Mark de LA says
XOR maybe excitement ≠ utility except for N 
XOR the #AlreadyAlways  #mystory ≠ #yourstory 

Si says
Well when I am around others who are writing this same kind of story, the one based on #LOA and the understanding that we each generate our own individual entire reality experience, then our collective stories do match. Only the individual details are different … the hearts desire part of the stories match, and the great relationships with others part of the stories match. So it is indubitably not “just N”.

I am sure this is similar for most people and most kinds of stories too. #LOA says that it would be because like vibrations match, even within the vibration of the story substrate itself. Except perhaps for heavy mismatchers … they will always gravitate to their own “different than others” story, obviously … they are metaprogramed to do so. 

Mark de LA says
Yep, your island, your clan – like wants like . Works for political parties, race (apparently) , ISIS & religions. Not news here! null not necessarily a metaphysical magical link, though.

Seth says



nathan, Your judgments and story about me and its comparson to your own life, are about as useful as Washington’s contort to Mona and her retort back. 

There may be actual substance in what you said above to which i can usefully respond … but it is ohhh so hard to get at it and ignore the blatant bullshit in which you nested it.  Perhaps we can get at it else wise in a more reasonable context.

#WashingtonCrossingDeleware #MonaLisa #Egoo #RespectForOtherness #specificity

Mark de LA says
Conversation forked to thought 24619

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