Economics, Value, & Price

Something rarely expressed is the other side of the equation price vs value for an example

stockmarket or commodities are in a boom market when prices go up ▲ – is it the scarcity of the availability of products or the decrease in the value of the dollar or other currency ?
the value of the bitcoin keeps going up …. https://www.coindesk.com/price/ outside of potential government interference world wide is that the value of the coin increasing or the values of the local currency inflating?
gold & silver https://www.moneymetals.com/precious-metals-charts
one would need to compare with other currencies to yield some kind of premise but the US $ value has built into it both the GDP & the 20.2 Trillion$$$ debt
the value of real estate depends upon market appraisals, the ease of mortgages & migration & jobs between the states.
Bubbles occur when the market is oversold & there is no more value to be exhausted.
The presumption here is U.S. capitalism

Comments

Seth says
👍

Si says
Steiner says, in his Economics essay, that real estate has no real value … that giving it value is one of the major downfalls of modern economics and the major cause of inflation.

However good these ideas are, they missed their boat. They would have been a useful model in the later half of the 20th century. Now, they are beyond their use. Government will implode world wide before this model will be able to mature, and what will take the place will be an intrinsic value system, similar to the Time Bank model currently being used in many local communities across the nation, and in other countries, today.

Mark de LA says
Yeah, I am aware of what RS said. This is more what is happening with the US capitalism system.
I posted this earlier the year http://rsfsocialfinance.org/

Mark de LA says
Bitcoin or some similar for registering land use to agreements of use by the communities instead of government xor a select few who seem to have the most billion$ – might be an interesting start. Similar to RS.
https://www.coindesk.com/blockchain-land-registry-solution-seeking-problem/
…
also here is a look at money as a system-of-control in addition to:

medium of exchange
stored value
unit of accounts

see

Mark de LA says
Threefold LAND considerations to be digested later : https://goo.gl/N5LGZY .
Somewhere years ago I found the point in s threefoldness that value & money is sunk into the ground & wasted if land is not tied to use. Obviously one can’t do this immediately & must be grandfathered so that it is not just #RobingHoodies stealing from the so-called rich.
http://rsfsocialfinance.org/search/?srch=land&c=all

Mark de LA says
CIFIUS is an interesting cartel of people who approved UraniumOne scandal:
Their current membership

Mark de LA says
Then too Etherium has problems:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/08/cryptocurrency-300m-dollars-stolen-bug-ether
I don’t think Bitcoin has this but it will certainly get talked about.

Mark de LA says
I like #AA ‘s analogy :

Why Are There Bugs on the Cover? The leafcutter ant is a species that exhibits highly complex behavior in a colony super-organism, but each individual ant operates on a set of simple rules driven by social interaction and the exchange of chemical scents (pheromones). Per Wikipedia: “Next to humans, leafcutter ants form the largest and most complex animal societies on Earth.” Leafcutter ants don’t actually eat leaves, but rather use them to farm a fungus, which is the central food source for the colony. Get that? These ants are farming! Although ants form a caste-based society and have a queen for producing offspring, there is no central authority or leader in an ant colony. The highly intelligent and sophisticated behavior exhibited by a multimillion-member colony is an emergent property from the interaction of the individuals in a social network. Nature demonstrates that decentralized systems can be resilient and can produce emergent complexity and incredible sophistication without the need for a central authority, hierarchy, or complex parts. Bitcoin is a highly sophisticated decentralized trust network that can support myriad financial processes. Yet, each node in the bitcoin network follows a few simple mathematical rules. The interaction between many nodes is what leads to the emergence of the sophisticated behavior, not any inherent complexity or trust in any single node. Like an ant colony, the bitcoin network is a resilient network of simple nodes following simple rules that together can do amazing things without any central coordination.

Antonopoulos, Andreas M. (2017-06-12). Mastering Bitcoin: Programming the Open Blockchain (Kindle Locations 59-72). O’Reilly Media. Kindle Edition.

Twitter #AndreasAntonopoulis #AA feed – https://twitter.com/aantonop/media

Mark de LA says
While the Leafcutter Ants have society do they have individual consciousness (ego) outside of the robotic?

Mark de LA says
RSF – Free Range Money http://rsfsocialfinance.org/2016/06/28/free-range-money/ ← cryptocurrency

Mark de LA says
open, borderless, decentralized, censorship resistant, transaction immutable, irreversable, predictable outcomes etc….
threatens authority

Mark de LA says

Mark de LA says
I tweeted this to #AndreasAntonopoulis https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance
Maybe it is because he is a Brit → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Antonopoulos – Furthermore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory#North_America

@aantonop What about https://t.co/aBGblR6uDY ? Seems can’t get around the IRS.
— Flush Gov (@FlushGov1) November 9, 2017

Mark de LA says
May need a group for Bitcoin xor CryptoCurrencies
Sudoku
Game

Sudoku is a logic-based, combinatorial number-placement puzzle. The objective is to fill a 9×9 grid with digits so that each column, each row, and each of the nine 3×3 subgrids that compose the grid contains all of the digits from 1 to 9. Wikipedia

Seth says
They don’t have individual egos … even thought they have individual bodies. Their ego is the colony. “Having” and individual ego would interfere with the best interests of the colony. The same thing happens with humans. It seems the challenge of our species is to have the best qualities of individual egos and still have the best qualities of our colonies.

How was this related to #bitcoins ? I am just curious.

Seth says
check out the #sudoku tag room.

How is Sudoku related to #bitcoins ?

Mark de LA says
Read the comment above with the picture #AA chose for the cover. It is the Ego that makes human society different.

Mark de LA says
The game is similar in challenges to some of the blockchain programming &/or proof of work stuff mentioned by #AA in one of the two videos above.

Seth says
👍

Seth says
Or the “emergent property from the interaction of the individuals in a social network” IS an “ego”. We just do that inside our individual bodies as well as outside of them in our society. The extent that we do it inside ourselves is what sets us apart from the other animals. I know it feels weird to talk about your insides as a network of interacting things … but try it out. That you are one unitary indivisible being might be just an illusion.

Mark de LA says
Conceptualizing humans as if they are ant colonies has been tried before.. not for me! It seems to be a thread of yours building collective egos, identity groups etc.

(*)

xor

(**)

Seth says
Yep, i did not make this up all by myself. It is a common thought out there. I ran across it also in a book by Marvin Minski on AI … i’ll look it up for you if you want. And yes, i expected it would not be a thought that you would like. Nevertheless it explains a lot about how egos function … but, shucks, once one has firmly bitten into the eog cookie, this view is a hard pill to swallow, #fabana.

Mark de LA says
Hmmm… don’t know what you are saying – don’t want to on this subject – you read but fail to understand, especially in the context of how #AA introduced the book.

Seth says
i have not gotten the chance yet to study #AA work here. but what i said about #ego here should be clear enough to understand … whether you want to believe it or not is another matter entirely.

Mark de LA says
The context is all in this post.

Mark de LA says
#BitcoinBubble – when I first investigated bitcoin the exchange rate was $260/bitcoin it is currently $6615/bitcoin & today it was as high as $7330/bitcoin. As long as one stays in bitcoin it is relatively easy to ignore, otherwise the market is too rich for my taste. Unfortunately the IRS declares bitcoins as money xor property.
https://www.coindesk.com/price/

Seth says
#bitcoin is money … the IRS is right to tax it … it could not be otherwise.

Mark de LA says
too bad you don’t understand it! watch one of the videos above maybe Economics, Value, & Price (comment 82268)

Seth says
well i admit to not knowing the mathematics of #bitcoin … but i am well aware of the concepts involved. i can not think of a single thing that could be said which would contradict my assertion, “ #bitcoin is money … the IRS is right to tax it” … shucks, if you know of one, from whatever source, could you enlighten me? … i am primed and ready to listen even in your own terms.

Mark de LA says
Like http://fastblogit.com/thought/24705 I am clear that were I to elaborate further I would just be proving that I wasted my time with a #ContradictionMachine – i.e. the spirit of the #RWG .
#done – smoking gun done.

Seth says
oh well … you love not to actually #connect … again and again … oh well, oh well, oh well.

Mark de LA says
Ibid – I pointed to the video that explains it

Seth says
so why don’t you say it in your own living words?

Mark de LA says
wHY DON’T YOU WATCH THE VIDEO! – i’M NOT YOUR RESEARCH ASSISTANT!

Seth says
yeah i probably will when i get a chance. however there is a challenge ….

Mark de LA says
try again I fixed it xor – the url is https://youtu.be/FyK4P7ZdOK8

Seth says
here in another long interview of #AA …

Mark de LA says
His 2 books via Kindle has links all over & a list. If you think of money carefully it is
also here is a look at money as a system-of-control in addition to:

medium of exchange
stored value
unit of accounts

Mark de LA says
money is just a function in bitcoin system – similar to a checkbook without any bank markings on it. The Federal Reserve prints the fiat currency whereas before gold was used which had value in itself. Look at all it takes to get you some to exchange with someone else to get something of value you want. There is no value in the empty checkbook, there is no value in the check itself a chain of trust has to happen . #AA explains that part & the government part in it.

Seth says
👍

Mark de LA says
I think I saw an earlier version of the show

Mark de LA says
A couple points not anywhere so far :

How to boot a system without resort to market exchanges to fiat currencies?
If value is what is being taxed than politicians & constituents who put their fingers on the scale for corporations to improve their own wealth should be taxed on their effects.

Mark de LA says
some of the death of money is scary

This is probably why Ron Paul never got his audit of the Federal Reserve.

Mark de LA says
postmortem: https://gizmodo.com/the-fungus-that-turns-ants-into-zombies-is-more-diaboli-1820301538
they really put themselves into their work.

Seth says
#bitcoin is not, any way you slice it, “the death of money”. rather it is the death of central control of money. Bitcoin is a currency in most respects just like other currencies. when as and if the national currencies collapse, bitcoin may well be there to provide a reasonable media of exchange for human #commerce.

me, i think i will dabble in it now. There is even a vending machine in the south center mall … i’ll post a picture and the experience when i get a chance.

Seth says
i think #RS’s #threefolding idea of making government totally separate from commerce is excellent and every change we make should be in that direction. if bitcoin thrives, i think that will be a step in the right direction.

that said, i think there are some problems with completely ungoverned commerce. A totally free market system favors greed … you can work that out, even prove it, mathematically. So, without some governing principle beyond “indivudual power and glory rules”, some other governing principle must emerge to balance … otherwise in the long run we sacrifice a merit based opportunity of individuals. We would get an oligarchy … would we not?

Mark de LA says
The title of the ‘tube was just like most titles – #ClickBait – Regular money is not likely to disappear until the physical domain does

money is: (according to #AA )

a system-of-control
medium of exchange
stored value
unit of accounts

Bitcoin is overpriced right now each transaction costs check chart
Good Luck! (I don’t have a smart phone so I am going to hang out a while yet)

Seth says
👍

Mark de LA says
economics separated from government does not mean “free market” – indeed his idea was one of dynamic equilibrium of suppy/demand/& all the other requirements . In some places RS sounds like a socialist with adding in the hierarchy is quite flat rather than the infinitely tall one we have today …
his model was like the human body with economics being the blood supply etc.

Mark de LA says
Indeed it would be fun to try & model it with some blockchain system.

Seth says
hmmm …. well what would the assumptions be that you would put into the system?

Mark de LA says
Answer the questions in comment Economics, Value, & Price (comment 82362)

value is a function of
- the characteristics of what is being valued: eg eggs, chickens, lipstick, books ….
- where you are relative to where it is
  - delivery time
  - cost of delivery & method
  - delivery distance
  - country & language & cultural considerations
- rarity & scarceness (dynamic ) the human body doesn’t need adrenalin all the time
labor itself can’t be made a commodity (like it is today) – no matter how much money you have at the end: the last second is either free or ∞
etc. value is a long economics discussion – bitcoin only deals with the agreement between parties as how much bitcoin is to be exchanged.

Mark de LA says
Given some of #AA’s videos I am concerned about hackers not yet into the Bitcoin Protocol but at some other point in the usage & usecases of the protocol. Like perhaps someone grabbing your cell phone & wiring themselves all your money; etc.

Seth says
i think word has it that a #blockchain system is even more resilient than traditional online banking being resistant to hacking. the reason being there is no central database to hack into or compromise. rather the data is distributed to many nodes and every transmission between nodes must match its hashtag signature.

Mark de LA says
resultant or resistant?

Seth says
👍

Seth says
fixed

Mark de LA says
This is #AA ‘s best explanation of economics + bitcoin – perhaps better than my econ 101 at UCLA.

Mark de LA says
& just for amusement:
https://hackernoon.com/how-i-cornered-the-bitcoin-mining-market-using-a-quantum-computer-9e5dceba9f92

& the head of a chain:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing

Economics, Value, & Price

Tags

Comments

See Also