More Silent Thought

Silent thought is one of the wierdest experiences we humans have on a daily basis & yet we pass it bye with the idea that "that's just the brain doing it's thing" or some such disesteem as that.  Our familiarization with computers & how they work nowadays makes it easier to brush off the experience as man imitating machine (or vice versa).Well, let me rain on that parade .  The only test of intelligence in machines commonly recognized is the Turing Test. The Turing Test doesn't even test whether thoughts are happening or present. As a matter of fact, loosly saying we can't really tell whether thoughts are occuring in a machine at all without some kind of input-output as a clue. Are thoughts & is thinking just electrical activity (as an MRI might disclose) ?  If that were so then we should expect the electrical grid & the internet to start thinking pretty soon, eh? Well I'm not going to hold my breath until that happens (thoughts would need to come out without a human in the process.)
Here's the point I woke up with this morning - I can have thoughts without any input or output linguistically or otherwise. There are moments when I close myself off from world & give focus to silence. In these times I can distinguish between what's a form of memory & what may be considered as something else (still without verbalization).  If there is any input-output it is in the realm of consciousness & it shows up like sensation or perception rather than memory or illative force of linguistic massage.

Yep, I know there are neuro-surgeons  &  biologists who will blame anything like this on just the electro-chemical storm in the part of the anatomy called the brain. They will blame consciousness itself on the brain. I differ from the assessments because I can find nothing like electro-chemical activity in my experiences of the 5 senses nor the others buried under consciousness - the will & the feelings I get in the heart area when I contemplate the love I have the special people in my life.

Tags

  1. silent thought
  2. honesty
  3. item 10001
  4. behavior
  5. intentions

Comments


Mark de LA says
Where is the organ of consciousness or self-consciousness ? Are these just the residue of the linguistic & semantic reification of ideas passed on by our education, folks, friends, books & other stuff? So-far my experience of self-consciousness is nothing like anything ever acquired through any of these even if you add zen contemplation to the lot. As a matter of fact, I say, you can't really describe it at all so that another person groks it.

Mark de LA says
M 2012-06-18 15:53:52 2474
This morning, before waking up fully, I felt a fearfullness that I am a prisoner of language. While I can sense many other things in my mind like the will to do something or the artistry of something I am a prisoner of language If I want to come to grips with whatever it is - in order to congnize it & maybe remember it. This originated in contemplating the phrase "I honor my word as myself". I wanted to dig deep to find all incongruencies including those where I was not making a promise to myself but running a contrary line of thought opposed to something I contemplated making a promise about, ...etc.

I've been struggling with the word honor until this morning.  It is the root of the word honesty. Main modern sense of "dealing fairly, truthful" is c.1400, as is sense of "virtuous." I can be honest with my word & be honest with my self & they both must be congruent with my dealings with both my inside & outside worlds. 

All relativism about truth, wishy-washy recontextualization & haggling about what's so is not part of this context & distinction.

Seth says
source: Mark above
... where I was not making a promise to myself but running a contrary line of thought opposed to something I contemplated making a promise about ...
It's unclear to me what that means.  Could you perhaps say it differently or give an example?


I don't seem to have the same relationship to language as you do ... so almost anything i would say to describe my predicament there, you would not think  applied to you, and it probably wouldn't ... lol.  In other, more abstract words, my language activity does not seem to generalize to yours ... they are quite different things.  For example, i would never say to myself "I honor my word as myself".   For me, my word is just the best representation that i can make that honestly expresses my knowledge and intentions of a particular moment.   But, for me, my moments change a whole lot ... perhaps a great deal more than yours do ... it may help you to understand my words, if you actually would believe that.

Mark de LA says
If you say you are going to do something & then do something else you are not only lying but also not honorable.

Mark de LA says
The root idea involves integrity which is already written about.  Put in the simplest words it is taking a stand in one's life that "I say what I'm going to do & then do what I said I would do" - the basics of integrity; i.e. you can trust me. 
BTW, I'm not there yet completely, but I can take that stand anyway & work on it as I want to have integrity.  I carried that further the other day when I noticed that unless I use language I can't remember what goes through nor get very far with what comes before language in silent thought. Try not putting something into words & yet hold onto it long enough to cognize (grok) something - that's what I was playing with.  There is lots of other stuff going on in there which could be mentioned which are incongruent with integrity like making excuses for failure or not doing what I have already agreed with myself I would do.
BTW, about the time I was transferred to Atlanta (~1995) I was taking a 10 week course in LA teasing out the distinctions of integrity. What I concluded was that my integrity & identity are all bound up together; i.e. integrity = wholeness.  I managed to take a stand that I would finish the course even though I had to fly back for the last class & turn around on the red eye to get back for a meeting in the morning the next day.  I took the stand to do that, I did that, & the company paid for it & my position was still secure.
You are probably quite different.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-19 08:04:28 2474
I see honesty and honor as quite distinct virtues.  Honesty is, for me, when what you say exactly matches what you think, feel, and intend ... when the words you project  into the external world exactly represent your internal world.  My honor is more a virtuous relationship of my deeds to those around me.   It is true, that if i am dishonest, then i would also lack honor ... but being honest, is not sufficient for being honorable ... deeds being quite different than words.
Yep, they are two different words with the same root etymology. That's why I say what I do & do what I say restated as I honor my word as myself involves the phrase honor my word.

Seth says
M 2012-06-19 08:19:31 2474
If you say you are going to do something & then do something else you are not only lying but also not honorable.
Well you always do something other than what you say; because language is at best an abstraction of, and a inadequate representation of, what actually does happen ... in other words "saying is not doing".  But if what you say is the best representation of your  knowledge, feelings, and intentions at the moment of speaking ... then you are being honest and not lying. 

Making a promise is a special case of doing and saying.  A person who can make good promises and keep them is certainly a person we can trust.   Yes, such a person, might represent us well as a politician.  If you want to say that person "has integrity and honor", then i will know what you mean.

But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man.  Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well.   I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly.  Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-19 09:01:38 2474
M 2012-06-19 08:19:31 2474
If you say you are going to do something & then do something else you are not only lying but also not honorable.
Well you always do something other than what you say; because language is at best an abstraction of, and a inadequate representation of, what actually does happen ... in other words "saying is not doing".  But if what you say is the best representation of your  knowledge, feelings, and intentions at the moment of speaking ... then you are being honest and not lying. 

Making a promise is a special case of doing and saying.  A person who can make good promises and keep them is certainly a person we can trust.   Yes, such a person, might represent us well as a politician.  If you want to say that person "has integrity and honor", then i will know what you mean.

But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man.  Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well.   I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly.  Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.
I question your "always" notion above.  If I say I am going to the Harvest Bread Company today to get a loaf of Dakota Bread & then do it.  I have kept my word; no haggling, wishy-washy, re-contextualization necessary. Inside I know what I am going to do most of the time. 


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-19 09:22:12 2474
M 2012-06-19 09:14:11 2474
seth 2012-06-19 09:01:38 2474
M 2012-06-19 08:19:31 2474
If you say you are going to do something & then do something else you are not only lying but also not honorable.
Well you always do something other than what you say; because language is at best an abstraction of, and a inadequate representation of, what actually does happen ... in other words "saying is not doing".  But if what you say is the best representation of your  knowledge, feelings, and intentions at the moment of speaking ... then you are being honest and not lying. 

Making a promise is a special case of doing and saying.  A person who can make good promises and keep them is certainly a person we can trust.   Yes, such a person, might represent us well as a politician.  If you want to say that person "has integrity and honor", then i will know what you mean.

But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man.  Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well.   I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly.  Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.
I question your "always" notion above.  If I say I am going to the Harvest Bread Company today to get a loaf of Dakota Bread & then do it.  I have kept my word; no haggling, wishy-washy, re-contextualization necessary. Inside I know what I am going to do most of the time. 

Yep, my use of "always" is a bit of a quibble.  You can ignore it or not.  It is just the realization that doing is not saying ... and really can never be the same.  Your expression seemed to me to get perilously close to denying that fact.
NEVER? You quibbled again with the word never! I am going go type in the sentence "Seth eats Shit" , press the say button below & the words Seth eats Shit will appear in this comment as I predict.


Mark de LA says
For sure, Spirit-Self (or greater Manas) is something besides keeping your word. Check out the Steiner eLib if you care. Pg. 24 of the little book Blooming Umbrella also has some of the subtle distinctions within the human being. What you identify with may not be the same thingy as who you are at the core, imho.


Mark de LA says
Seth(above): ... But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man. Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well. I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly. Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.

...
How do you know when you are doing the honesty thingy?  .... if what you are doing is not congruent with what you are saying to yourself & possibly others ?
BTW, I view promises kept as an access to power & the opposite as the loss of power. Others may disagree.  Excuses, hagggling, lawyering & re-contextualization are just symptoms of that loss.


Seth says
M 2012-06-19 09:28:18 2474
seth 2012-06-19 09:22:12 2474
M 2012-06-19 09:14:11 2474
seth 2012-06-19 09:01:38 2474
M 2012-06-19 08:19:31 2474
If you say you are going to do something & then do something else you are not only lying but also not honorable.
Well you always do something other than what you say; because language is at best an abstraction of, and a inadequate representation of, what actually does happen ... in other words "saying is not doing".  But if what you say is the best representation of your  knowledge, feelings, and intentions at the moment of speaking ... then you are being honest and not lying. 

Making a promise is a special case of doing and saying.  A person who can make good promises and keep them is certainly a person we can trust.   Yes, such a person, might represent us well as a politician.  If you want to say that person "has integrity and honor", then i will know what you mean.

But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man.  Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well.   I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly.  Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.
I question your "always" notion above.  If I say I am going to the Harvest Bread Company today to get a loaf of Dakota Bread & then do it.  I have kept my word; no haggling, wishy-washy, re-contextualization necessary. Inside I know what I am going to do most of the time. 

Yep, my use of "always" is a bit of a quibble.  You can ignore it or not.  It is just the realization that doing is not saying ... and really can never be the same.  Your expression seemed to me to get perilously close to denying that fact.
NEVER? You quibbled again with the word never! I am going go type in the sentence "Seth eats Shit" , press the say button below & the words Seth eats Shit will appear in this comment as I predict.

Well, ok, yes, when the action is in fact a speech act, then the doing is the saying ... point well taken.

Seth says
M 2012-06-19 09:49:53 2474
Seth(above): ... But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man. Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well. I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly. Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.

...
How do you know when you are doing the honesty thingy?  .... if what you are doing is not congruent with what you are saying to yourself & possibly others ?
BTW, I view promises kept as an access to power & the opposite as the loss of power. Others may disagree.  Excuses, hagggling, lawyering & re-contextualization are just symptoms of that loss.

You have a weird way of asking a question.  "if what you are doing is not congruent with what you are saying", then, yes, you are almost certainly being dishonest. 

I agree "promises kept" is "an acess to power".

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-19 10:01:38 2474
M 2012-06-19 09:49:53 2474
Seth(above): ... But there is much more to human activity than making and keeping promises, and even of gaining the trust of your fellow man. Those activities, that some people do better than others, is not the sum total of what i identify with ... nor is it what i most identify with ... it is not something that i do particularly well. I'm more into just the honesty part of the virtue ... and i do value that greatly. Promises are a special talent ... personally i tend to avoid them ... even to myself. Do i lack honor in that regard ... well, no, i would not say that of myself.

...
How do you know when you are doing the honesty thingy?  .... if what you are doing is not congruent with what you are saying to yourself & possibly others ?
BTW, I view promises kept as an access to power & the opposite as the loss of power. Others may disagree.  Excuses, hagggling, lawyering & re-contextualization are just symptoms of that loss.

You have a weird way of asking a question.  "if what you are doing is not congruent with what you are saying", then, yes, you are almost certainly being dishonest. 

I agree "promises kept" is "an acess to power".
I distinctly made it a two part question separated by ....
I wanted both answers.


Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-19 10:33:08 2474
source: M asks above
How do you know when you are doing the honesty thingy?
When what i say is the truest representation that i can expresses of my knowledge, feelings and intentions of a particular moment, then i am being honest. 
Does the word intentions carry forth into the doing thingy? We all know a bunch of politicians with all the greatest intentions but are shit for doing, don't we?

Mark de LA says
seth 2012-06-20 12:14:07 2474
source: M supposedly-asked a question above
Does the word intentions carry forth into the doing thingy?
Well certainly it does, for almost any interpretation of the phrase "carry forth".  But what are you really asking/saying ?

I have chronicled some of my struggle with making actions match intentions in behavior and proposed a method in How to change context:.  For the record, i don't think i have solved the problem yet ... were it even to be defined as a problem.   Have you?

That predicament has been with me all of my life.  I have no doubt that it has deeply affected my character.  I'm pretty sure that most people do not struggle with it as have I.   Be that as it may, i don't accept a judgement that goes:  integrety and honor is keeping promises ... and the implication being that if you don't keep your promise, your very being and identity is deficient.
This is an ontological discussion & as such you are the judge for your own being. Perfection (& guilt) are themselves strange things outside the integrity domain, imho. I reserve the right in the domain of politics to judge as I see fit, however. It goes more like this where I personalize it: As I increase the congruency between my internal & external word in matching my doing & action I say I increase my integrity. As in integrity I accept the requirement that I "clean up" those cases where I miss my shot in the best possible way to relieve harm done if I don't.  If I say I am going to be somewhere & I get in an accident I call ahead & reschedule or something. I do my best to make sure the net result to "the world" is better or at least not harmed as a result of my failure to keep my word. Some ultimately gets left to karma where I am not fully in charge of all domains.  If I were to accidently kill somebody in a car accident, obviously I could never make that up in this life.
 

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