The Exstensional Approach

A thing is defined by the items it collects. See the context google "extensional approach" This comes from the math concept extensional vs intensional which gives us two different ways to define a set. An extensional set is defined by the items themselves. An intensional set is defined by some external criteria or definition. The point of this item is to say that fastblogit uses the "extensional approach" to defining groups, and tagrooms, and pretty much any kind of entity that you find here.

 
note this item was started in 2005 ... and is now being called up in 2014.  Below are the additions.

"A  collection is best shared as the actual things that make it up, rather than some quality that is subjectively associated with it."

Bozo’s Principle


Please bear in mind here that the design principle above is being flown up the flagpole for the sake of discussion and wording.  But this thinking is not just me, this is a movement of thought that has been going in this direction for quite some time ... see The Extensional Stance.

Tags

  1. extensional
  2. intensional
  3. old item
  4. context
  5. extensional stance
  6. longley

Comments


Seth says
For example: a tagroom is defined by the items that are tagged with a specific phrase. A group is defined by those people who know it's password and contribute to its flow. A subject is defined by all the items with the same title.

Seth says
This item was inspired by
incidentally there is no such thing now as a "private tagroom" .. there is not even such a thing as a private group ... all there is is private and published items
Why? ... because a "private group" is defined by items that are designated as private.

Seth says
IOW, there is no such thing as a "private group", a group my appear private to you just because you don't know its password. There is no place in the db which marks a group as "private"; rather items are marked "private".

unknown says
i don't get intensional at all ! (:-((

Seth says
Here is an example of an "intensional set" : all integers > 0 ... there is no way that set can be defined extensionally.

Seth says
You cannot enumerate (all integers > 0) like you can enumerate the integers between 0 and 5 as (1, 2, 3, 4).

Seth says
M 2014-10-21 08:55:39 364
seth 2014-10-21 08:53:03 364
M 2014-10-21 08:49:14 364
seth 2014-10-21 08:45:14 364
source: mark
theoretikos vs pratikos :
source: ...
theoretical (adj.) Look up theoretical at Dictionary.com1610s, "contemplative," with -al (1) + Late Latin theoreticus "of or pertaining to theory," from Greek theoretikos "contemplative, speculative, pertaining to theory" (by Aristotle contrasted to praktikos), fromtheoretos "that may be seen or considered," from theorein "to consider, look at" (see theory). Meaning "pertaining to theory, making deductions from theory not from fact" (opposed to practical) is from 1650s; earlier in this sense was theorical (c.1500). Meaning "ideal, hypothetical" is from 1790s (implied in theoretically). Related: theoretician.
...


i do not see the relationship between the concept of "theory" and this thought in this item.    What is the relationship that you see?
Theoretical versus Practical polarity relates to the item's abstractional approach to some unknown situation in some part of life.


well for example, can you give me an example of anything you just said? 
Yep, I can't find anything practical or real in the subject you are talking about.  It is as if there is no real subject at all.


Do you understand it enough to find an example where it yields a more practical thought than defining things from the top down by the mere association of mental ideas to them?  Have you actually tried that method?  I mean before you just reject the method of thought, don't you think you should be able to do it, so that you can make a rational choice?

Seth says

For example, a context is best shared by pointing out the actual things that make up the context.

Seth says
A good example of Bozo's Principle above is where a something is described in generalities and not grasped ... yet is instantly grasped when examples are given. 

Seth says
M 2014-10-21 08:30:35 364
I call all this abstractional.

well it points to actual methods of thought.  examples can be given.  point being that thinking extensionally usually yields more practical results than thinking intensionally. 

Seth says
M 2014-10-21 08:25:44 364
seth 2014-10-21 08:10:32 364

For example, a context is best shared by pointing out the actual things that make up the context.
Maybe the Wikipedia defines your broken link on intensional better.

thanks, fixed it.

Seth says
Incidentally i am not saying here that we should not be cognizant of properties and criteria in the abstract.  That is certainly a useful way to think.  Rather i am just saying that the actual thingeys themselves are what have consequences beyond the mere subjective mental worlds.  Where one cannot give an example of something, then the mental world is way too far ahead of any world that can be shared with others. 

Seth says
incidentally, the descriptions in this item are in fact abstract, the application of Bozo's Principle is not. Try it in your thinking, you may like it. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-21 09:55:20 364
An example of an intensional approach is identifying the three different spheres of our society by  intensional properties: liberty, equality, fraternity.   An extensional approach is to identify the functions themselves like this ...
source: social self

1. Cultural �" everything involving the growth and expression of the human spirit: education, art, science, religion, journalism and publishing

2. Legal/political �" involving human rights and relationships between people and organizations

3. Economic �" having to do with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services


... i would hasten to add Medicine to the 1'st list.  It is hard for me to have gotten that from the property just called "Liberty". 
When you use the word intensional I think of having the intention to do something. Using that word intensional does nothing for me in identifying the domains of threefoldness regardless of its meaning.  Maybe this link will tease out or unconceal the difference. I would like to propose you take that word & use it to take a poll of the intelligent man in the street & see what they dp with it.


Seth says
An example of an intensional approach is identifying the three different spheres of our society by  intensional properties: liberty, equality, fraternity.   An extensional approach is to identify the functions themselves like this ...
source: social self

1. Cultural – everything involving the growth and expression of the human spirit: education, art, science, religion, journalism and publishing

2. Legal/political – involving human rights and relationships between people and organizations

3. Economic – having to do with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services


... i would hasten to add Medicine to the 1'st list.  It is hard for me to have gotten that from the property just called "Liberty". 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-21 09:24:32 364
Incidentally i am not saying here that we should not be cognizant of properties and criteria in the abstract.  That is certainly a useful way to think.  Rather i am just saying that the actual thingeys themselves are what have consequences beyond the mere subjective mental worlds.  Where one cannot give an example of something, then the mental world is way too far ahead of any world that can be shared with others. 
PML .... give an example of that without going into the meta-abstract.


Seth says
Personal email to the author of Frag

Seth says
M 2014-10-21 10:27:30 364
seth 2014-10-21 09:24:32 364
Incidentally i am not saying here that we should not be cognizant of properties and criteria in the abstract.  That is certainly a useful way to think.  Rather i am just saying that the actual thingeys themselves are what have consequences beyond the mere subjective mental worlds.  Where one cannot give an example of something, then the mental world is way too far ahead of any world that can be shared with others. 

  give an example of that without going into the meta-abstract.


Specifically what "that" are you referring to?  There are about three or four in my paragraph that i can count. 

Please note that this item itself of its nature is talking about mental objects and how they are practically used. So excluding what you call "meta-abstract" and comming up with an example might not be possible.  For example: symbolize instances of intensional/expensional approaches as an arrows with their tails in a meta-world (subjective mental world) pointing with their heads into to a world of consequential experience.   We cannot talk of those arrows without also talking about their tails in mental domains (your "meta-abstract"). 

Seth says
source: mark
When you use the word intensional I think of having the intention to do something. Using that word intensional does nothing for me in identifying the domains of threefoldness regardless of its meaning.  Maybe this link will tease out or unconceal the difference. I would like to propose you take that word & use it to take a poll of the intelligent man in the street & see what they dp with it.

Mark "intentional" and "extensional" are entirely different words.  A set has an extension ... and yet can be defined by a property that defines it intensionally.  It took me a while to separate these concepts myself ... but they are talking about totally different things ... are there is no profit in mungeing them up together.

now i'll go look at  this link to see if i can teas anything out. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-21 10:46:06 364
M 2014-10-21 10:27:30 364
seth 2014-10-21 09:24:32 364
Incidentally i am not saying here that we should not be cognizant of properties and criteria in the abstract.  That is certainly a useful way to think.  Rather i am just saying that the actual thingeys themselves are what have consequences beyond the mere subjective mental worlds.  Where one cannot give an example of something, then the mental world is way too far ahead of any world that can be shared with others. 

  give an example of that without going into the meta-abstract.


Specifically what "that" are you referring to?  There are about three or four in my paragraph that i can count. 

Please note that this item itself of its nature is talking about mental objects and how they are practically used. So excluding what you call "meta-abstract" and comming up with an example might not be possible.  For example: symbolize instances of intensional/expensional approaches as an arrows with their tails in a meta-world (subjective mental world) pointing with their heads into to a world of consequential experience.   We cannot talk of those arrows without also talking about their tails in mental domains (your "meta-abstract"). 
first sentence is sort of a double negative & contradicts everything that follows.  Anyway rather than argue the meta-abstract I prefer you talk about pumpkins, your farm exchange & reralise that that experience doesn't generalize, but may serve as an example but the bullshit abstractions are just words & don't serve anything more than political spin does. Lord knows that we have enough of that these days!


Seth says
M 2014-10-21 09:07:59 364
seth 2014-10-21 08:42:30 364
incidentally, the descriptions in this item are in fact abstract, the application of Bozo's Principle is not. Try it in your thinking, you may like it. 
Could apply to a turnip, a horse, a turd or a piece of ass. 
Everything = nothing - ontologically speaking - the mind cannot comprehend everything nor can it comprehend nothing -
mere vanity taking like a fart in the wind looking in frantically for a mirror.

Mark, you obviously do not understand what you are talking about.

Seth says
choy 2014-10-22 06:58:53 364
seth 2014-10-22 04:26:27 364
no biggie.  i was just trying to show you a way to make something that is too abstract and mental, much more tangible ... to better grasp it.  but if you just want to argue about it, forget it.
Yeah,   was trying to show you that when you describe the real world in meta-abstract language you are back in your head again & lost your grasp on the real, but if you just want to argue about it, forget it indeed!


yeah whatever ... but all that said, you did not even understand what i was trying to say or understand it said from others either ... or at least you haven't given me any evidence that you have.

look, this is not arguing here ... stop thinking it is ... stop trying to one up me ... stop being right.  this is communication.  i had something that i want to get across to you.  it is solid thinking method.  i don't give a shit if i said it incorrectly ... read Rapporport or others ... pleanty of references already presented.   or just start with comprehending the first sentence i wrote about it.

Seth says


i'm not so very sure that this found on G+ follows the extensional approach ... but it is a funny one to contemplate in that regard.

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