Serious Proposition Node
About: politics & the right-wrong game's flames
Ultimately what is gained by being right in a political debate ? What do you & I get out of it? In America everyone has the right to express a political opinion. It is just because of this right that many people feel privileged to speak their political mind about anything & in the most outrageous ways. It has been this way for a very long time even with the founding fathers; most of us are unaware of this. I can't cite immediately which book it was in, but William Safire a former columnist of the NYTimes wrote several about political speeches which were far angrier than those of today.
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This is the proposition stated as a Vision:
Tags
- right-wrong
- flames
- politics
- fatwa
Comments
Seth says
So what is the proposition? ... is it that we should all follow the golden rule? I subscribe to that ethic, but i do not call this a proposition node ... not in the sense of a proposition node that i have been trying to develop here at fastblogit. The title of a proposition node contains a consise statement of the proposition. In this case i really don't know what the proposition is, so how can i present arguments for or against it? Is the node about not doing right-wrong ? Is it saying something about political debates in America ?
So what is the proposition? ... is it that we should all follow the golden rule? I subscribe to that ethic, but i do not call this a proposition node ... not in the sense of a proposition node that i have been trying to develop here at fastblogit. The title of a proposition node contains a consise statement of the proposition. In this case i really don't know what the proposition is, so how can i present arguments for or against it? Is the node about not doing right-wrong ? Is it saying something about political debates in America ?
Mark de LA says
Please read everything from "This is the proposition stated as a Vision" until the picture a few times & you may then have a question that I can answer about it. It's about creating a future which is worth while living into. You may not yet be confortable with working from a vision instead of a cast-in-concrete goal yet, but work a while with it. Please. There are no nots in the Vision it is all POSITIVE ! There is a lot more life in moving toward a future that you want to be in !
This is something that you may appreciate more even than I from your normal dynamic personality. It goes to the nature of BEING!
Please read everything from "This is the proposition stated as a Vision" until the picture a few times & you may then have a question that I can answer about it. It's about creating a future which is worth while living into. You may not yet be confortable with working from a vision instead of a cast-in-concrete goal yet, but work a while with it. Please. There are no nots in the Vision it is all POSITIVE ! There is a lot more life in moving toward a future that you want to be in !
This is something that you may appreciate more even than I from your normal dynamic personality. It goes to the nature of BEING!
Seth says
I read your whole article and i have no troubles with you vision. I am trying to do something here with proposition nodes ... something btw which was inspired by things you said ... and you are simply diluting, dissapating, and a confusing that intent. Proposition nodes are in contrast to rhetoric nodes like 3792 and 3793. Your node here is a vision node, ... to me it seems to fit with a faith based adgenda ... i don't really understand why you call it a "proposition node" .... except perhaps that it may have been written in response to me saying " M, just pose a serious proposition and i will take it seriously. This item contains no such serious proposition. " ... but whatever it is, it certainly is not something that is discussed in a rational pro/con manner where one is primarialy interested in verifiable facts and reasoned arguments. Now if you want to change the title to "If everyone will follow the golden rule, then all of our political problems will dissapear" .. or some such proposition, then at least we could take a stab at it. As you have is now, it comes off more like a Sunday morning sermon ... not that there is anything wrong with that. Is that the proposition that you are proposing here?
I read your whole article and i have no troubles with you vision. I am trying to do something here with proposition nodes ... something btw which was inspired by things you said ... and you are simply diluting, dissapating, and a confusing that intent. Proposition nodes are in contrast to rhetoric nodes like 3792 and 3793. Your node here is a vision node, ... to me it seems to fit with a faith based adgenda ... i don't really understand why you call it a "proposition node" .... except perhaps that it may have been written in response to me saying " M, just pose a serious proposition and i will take it seriously. This item contains no such serious proposition. " ... but whatever it is, it certainly is not something that is discussed in a rational pro/con manner where one is primarialy interested in verifiable facts and reasoned arguments. Now if you want to change the title to "If everyone will follow the golden rule, then all of our political problems will dissapear" .. or some such proposition, then at least we could take a stab at it. As you have is now, it comes off more like a Sunday morning sermon ... not that there is anything wrong with that. Is that the proposition that you are proposing here?
Seth says
Here is where you proposed the idea
that insired me coining the term "proposition nodes" and that is what i was refering to when i said, propose a serious proposition.
Here is where you proposed the idea
that insired me coining the term "proposition nodes" and that is what i was refering to when i said, propose a serious proposition.
Mark de LA says
Well I took the meaning of the word proposition in the more common sense. It certainly is a proposition. I proposed that we as humans at least temporarily abandon our adversarial natures & go for cooperation. I proposed that there are guidelines that can help us do that, i.e. the Golden Rule which just about everyone feels is good (religious or otherwise) & can at least on an individual basis expound on with some clarity & experience. I wrapped it up in the Vision styled as a question to be open ended for a discussion. I was not particularly looking to implement 3649 & such was not requested.
On the other hand you could treat this 3796 in just that way - the challenge is to keep the is supported by & is disputed with segments positive. In the former you could provide an is supported by segment which gives a detailed account of an experience in which personally used cooperation instead of adversarial conduct & got a good result. In the latter you could do the same with an account in which the outcome cound be termed a bad result.
Well I took the meaning of the word proposition in the more common sense. It certainly is a proposition. I proposed that we as humans at least temporarily abandon our adversarial natures & go for cooperation. I proposed that there are guidelines that can help us do that, i.e. the Golden Rule which just about everyone feels is good (religious or otherwise) & can at least on an individual basis expound on with some clarity & experience. I wrapped it up in the Vision styled as a question to be open ended for a discussion. I was not particularly looking to implement 3649 & such was not requested.
On the other hand you could treat this 3796 in just that way - the challenge is to keep the is supported by & is disputed with segments positive. In the former you could provide an is supported by segment which gives a detailed account of an experience in which personally used cooperation instead of adversarial conduct & got a good result. In the latter you could do the same with an account in which the outcome cound be termed a bad result.
Seth says
Yeah, well "that we as humans at least temporarily abandon our adversarial natures & go for cooperation" is not a serious or practical proposal either. It is not serious or practical because it doesn't have a chance in hell of actually happening.
Yeah, well "that we as humans at least temporarily abandon our adversarial natures & go for cooperation" is not a serious or practical proposal either. It is not serious or practical because it doesn't have a chance in hell of actually happening.
Mark de LA says
Well, on the other hand that is why we have wars. Left vs Right etc. - Keep it goin' Dude!
Well, on the other hand that is why we have wars. Left vs Right etc. - Keep it goin' Dude!
Mark de LA says
BTW, If you can't suspend your adversarial nature for some small amount of time you will have no unbiassed observations, no scientific method etc. Nobody here has said that you have to be that way all the time. What I want to initiate is a long-term trend for the better. Your expressed attitude is why some create an inner circle & an outer circle. Within the inner circle people are held to their higher aspirations.
BTW, If you can't suspend your adversarial nature for some small amount of time you will have no unbiassed observations, no scientific method etc. Nobody here has said that you have to be that way all the time. What I want to initiate is a long-term trend for the better. Your expressed attitude is why some create an inner circle & an outer circle. Within the inner circle people are held to their higher aspirations.
Mark de LA says
BTW, The Hunger Project found that people would even refuse to sign a card (no money, no contact info) that said "I want to end hunger in the world by the year 2000" - (my info is from quite a few years ago.) NOW, that is bizarre. If you can't even wrap your mind around ending world hunger some time, why think of yourself as a human being?
BTW, The Hunger Project found that people would even refuse to sign a card (no money, no contact info) that said "I want to end hunger in the world by the year 2000" - (my info is from quite a few years ago.) NOW, that is bizarre. If you can't even wrap your mind around ending world hunger some time, why think of yourself as a human being?
Seth says
There is a big difference between making a proposal of specific actions and one as general as yours here. Now if you were to propose that M and Seth were to stop resorting to leftrightism for the next month, that would be specific enough to actually happen. One could actually monitor compliance with such a proposal. Such a specific proposal for actual change of behavior has tangeable value. I would have taken you uip on such a proposal in a hot second.
There is a big difference between making a proposal of specific actions and one as general as yours here. Now if you were to propose that M and Seth were to stop resorting to leftrightism for the next month, that would be specific enough to actually happen. One could actually monitor compliance with such a proposal. Such a specific proposal for actual change of behavior has tangeable value. I would have taken you uip on such a proposal in a hot second.
Mark de LA says
Here is another Vision - it belongs to the Hunger Project.
Their method is not to feed people it is to educate people to feed themselves & eliminate the causes of poverty.
Here is another Vision - it belongs to the Hunger Project.
Their method is not to feed people it is to educate people to feed themselves & eliminate the causes of poverty.
Mark de LA says
M 2006-06-26 07:47:23 3796
M 2006-06-26 07:44:11 3796
Here is another Vision - it belongs to the Hunger Project.
Their method is not to feed people it is to educate people to feed themselves & eliminate the causes of poverty.
Their method is not to feed people it is to educate people to feed themselves & eliminate the causes of poverty.
Well, their vision link doesn't work from the url. Try clicking on the left-hand column VISION link & that should work.
Mark de LA says
"The impossible is possible when people align with you. When you do things with people, not against them, the amazing resources of the Higher Self within are mobilized."
Gita Bellin
Thanks Charlene for this quote.
Seth says
M 2006-06-27 10:14:30 3796
"The impossible is possible when people align with you. When you do things with people, not against them, the amazing resources of the Higher Self within are mobilized."
Gita Bellin
Thanks Charlene for this quote.
Yep, now figure out why you did not cooperate with my initiative on proposition node. Then you go around preeching cooperation. That kind of grates on me, sorry 
.
.
Mark de LA says
delay is NOT denial ! To me global warming is a political debate.
delay is NOT denial ! To me global warming is a political debate.
Mark de LA says
seth 2006-06-26 05:24:35 3796
Yeah, well "that we as humans at least temporarily abandon our adversarial natures & go for cooperation" is not a serious or practical proposal either. It is not serious or practical because it doesn't have a chance in hell of actually happening.
I did cooperate in the beginning & put a lot of thought into this proposal - abstract to you as it might be, up until I got the above comment - it didn't seem as if cooperation was about to happen.
Mark de LA says
In a way just in the context of Seth's so-called fatwa 3978 , I call this 3796 Mark's Fatwa.
In a way just in the context of Seth's so-called fatwa 3978 , I call this 3796 Mark's Fatwa.
Seth says
I think there is a big difference between wishing that human behavior will just change and proposing specific actions.
I think there is a big difference between wishing that human behavior will just change and proposing specific actions.
Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-09 08:14:01 3796
I think there is a big difference between wishing that human behavior will just change and proposing specific actions.
True! & there is NO WISHING allowed in my fatwa.
Seth says
M 2006-08-09 08:19:00 3796
seth 2006-08-09 08:14:01 3796
I think there is a big difference between wishing that human behavior will just change and proposing specific actions.
True! & there is NO WISHING allowed in my fatwa.
nor is there any proposal for specific action.
Mark de LA says
Choose NOW to see everything through the lens of the Golden Rule & NOT through the lenses of an eye for an eye, tit-for-tat, everyone else's hypocrisy & all the rest.
AND Pay it forward.
This is the simplified idea, viz.
Choose NOW to see everything through the lens of the Golden Rule & NOT through the lenses of an eye for an eye, tit-for-tat, everyone else's hypocrisy & all the rest.
AND Pay it forward.
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