A good day for America!

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Comments
Civilian courts are not even in question. For the most part these are foreign combatants captured on foreign soil and have no rights to our civilian courts. The ruling did not preclude a military tribunal. It did say that such a tribunal must "be consistent with" the Uniform Code of Military Justice and with the treaties to which the US is a signator. In other words, the rules that the administration setup were illegal. They were unjust.
Btw, put yourself in the shoes of some of these detainees ... for example the ones who have been already been releases with no charges filed after years of imprisionment with no recourse ... then ask yourself if the US policy is following the golden rule ... remember group goldenrule ?

Sorry, the Golden Rule is inappropriate to this situation. I have always said that the Golden Rule is for individuals to cultivate within themselves. Eventually when that is the case it will become universal & questions of terrorism will be moot. We are probably a few millenia ahead of ourselves for running a country that way.
Sometimes it takes a few years to determine what is true amongst the terrorists gaming the system & the lies they tell. Too bad. They are enemy combatants! -They should be grateful to Allah that they are still alive. There is a difference between illegal & unjust see 3836


Some of the problems associated with the detainees are outlined in this article from the Seattle-Post Intelligencer

The US Supreme Court declared yesterday that the president's military tribunal to try detainees at Guantanamo violates not only U.S. military law but also the Geneva conventions.
Before you started running your liberal mouth you should have read the Hamdan vs Rumsfield decision (178 pages - downloadable pdf here). None of your shoot-from-the-hip assertions are in there nor does what you insinuate about conservatives hold water.

Nothing in the ruling suggests shutting down the facility or challenges Bush's authority to detain enemy combatants.
The ruling was based on some interesting technicalities which the media ignores depending upon their normal liberal bias. Hopefully, Congress will fix it up.
There are some at G'itmo who have sworn that if they are released they will go about killing Americans again (ps. that means not just soldiers or the administration - could be you if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. ) - would you like them released into your neighborhood just because of a technicality in the law ?
Problems here are mainly what do you do with terrorists - they were not a problem when the Geneva conventions were adopted.
Our civilian courts would take years & millions of dollars to handle the cases -no matter what the outcome. Do you want to disclose your intel to the enemy & and those that ratted out other terrorists to death for their family & friends? It is a non trivial problem indeed! President Clinton went the civilian law way, & the terrorists just came back and blew up the twin towers anyway. Now Bush has to clean up his mess ! All power to him.






ALL HAIL the AlQueda Bill of Rights!
3836 shows what our wonderful justice system produces. Lets require bombers be given a free pass if they haven't been given their Miranda rights.

Regardless, it will be interesting to see what the lawyers in Congress come up with. Somewhere between a speedy trial with all the best lawyers in the world at your table & a summary judgement & firing squad comes something that is humane & yet protects US citizens from more terrorism from those same enemy combatants. Look at how long it took for the Moussaoui trial - & he was a jackass! Imagine what will happen with some of these remaining committed terrorists once they know how to game the system.

I don't seen anything in the rule "do onto others as you would have others do onto you" about applying the rule only with those who apply it in return. Check out game theory. What you are proposing is not the golden rule at all.
I never said it is a national ethic. One thing the Golden Rule kinda depends upon is that there is a culture of life & NOT a culture of death. The Islamo-fascists expect to go to heaven with their 72 virgins after they commit suicide in the name of their Islamo-fascist beliefs & blow up the innocents (this is not even Islam).. With these I would invoke the book of the law - II, 59-60
59. | Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. |
60. | Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master! |


The golden rule is a Christian ethic ...
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
Apparently the Supreme Court disagrees with you.
Sometimes it takes a few years to determine what is true amongst the terrorists gaming the system & the lies they tell. Too bad. They are enemy combatants! -They should be grateful to Allah that they are still alive. There is a difference between illegal & unjust see 3836



Remind me to never take anything you say about the golden rule seriously from now on

Btw, did you even try the though experiment. Answer the question: Is the administration following the golden rule or not ?
What page in the pdf are you referring to? The UCMJ sets up the rulings on how to set up some military tribunals, not try them as soldiers.




59. | Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him. |
60. | Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master! |

I don't mean to imply by my last comment that the golden rule is the same rule as trun-the-other-cheek ... only that both rules have the same "front your charatable behavior to others" component.
Ok, a correction is in order. I should have said "The golden rule is diametrically opposed to M's application of Aleister Crowley's II, 59-60 which freely translated says "strike hard and low and to hell with the bastard". Just when we are empowered to apply that clause is a bit hidden in esoteric symbols. How convenient! Perhaps Breck can give us an alternative interpertation of when that imvocation is supposed to trip in.


The Golden Rule is in ALL major religions, not just Christianity. Some say it is in Islam. Those references are here. The Golden Rule is an ethic of reciprocity that may include "turn the other cheek" at it's most agape frontier.

Answering point 2: No proper determination has been made that Hamdan is an
offender triable by military tribunal under the law of war.
It follows from those conclusions that Hamdan may not be tried for the war crimes he is charged with except by a court-martial duly convened under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
I quoted directly from Genesthai, his pervision, not mine.
You seem to be quoting from a different copy of the ruling. Mine I got of the SCOTUS website & is 185 pages long very small print. Yours is different. Anyway, the point is that arguments are pro & con & nested & hard to follow. We could both be lawyers & still argue & feel we were both right. It's been 42 years since I read the UCMJ cover to cover & then only to conduct a court martial. I don't think I want to persue this any further from the ruling I have other things to do. You may call it a win for your side of the bench if you like. I say the terrorists also win, but it is only one battle. Hopefully Congress can fix the details in the coming weeks.

Yep, that appears to be the plan.

Hey, that's my interpertation of what this republican said, but i didnt say it he did ... go find the transcript and read it for yourself.
We have not seen the last of this story ... url http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003101223_gitmo03.html
Show me one American, who acts like an American, was born an American who fought for America who has lost his civil rights or the right to habeus corpus & then I might worry. Otherwise it's all just paranoia.




Sorry, your surfacy ad hominin distractions do not inform. Is there a single fact in Smith's or Dean's presentation that you dispute? Are you telling me that you find Senators Kyl and Graham's manipulations of the legal process to be acceptable? Did your predijuce prevent you from reading down to the end where Dean says ...
The Hoax Fails: The Supreme Court Is Not Fooled
Hamdan's lawyers, however, spotted the hoax. In their opposition to the motion to dismiss the case, they advised the Court that the supposedly conflicting legislative history was entirely invented after the fact, and that it consisted of "a single scripted colloquy that never actually took place, but was instead inserted into the record after the legislation had passed." The brief noted, quite accurately, that this Graham-Kyl colloquy was "simply an effort to achieve after passage of the Act precisely what [they] failed to achieve in the legislative process."
Ultimately, the Supreme Court did not decide the jurisdictional issue until it rendered its full ruling on June 29 of this year. There, Justice Stevens concluded correctly that the Congress had not stripped the Court of jurisdiction with the DTA.
Out of an apparent concern for interbranch comity, the High Court has chosen to ignore the bogus brief filed by Senators Graham and Kyl, rather than reprimanding the Senators. Nevertheless, when Graham and Kyl sought to file the very same brief, a month later, with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columba, Slate's Emily Bazelon reports that court "issued an unusual order rejecting" their amicus brief alone, although they accepted five others.
No one familiar with this remarkable behavior by Graham and Kyl can doubt why the court did not want to hear from these senators.

Here is a bit more background on this case ...
Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona and Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina ought to be ashamed of themselves. But more than that, they should be facing state bar sanctions, and an ethics investigation in the Senate. Both Kyl and Graham issued a press release after the Hamdan decision came down but, not surprisingly, it has no mention that both of them were fraudulent liars who tried to skew the results in the Supreme Court.
Knowingly filing false information with a court is grounds for disbarment in my state, and I would be very surprised if Arizona and South Carolina didn



You see, I don't do things like talk to al queda
or plot terror.


Ad hominem again & again & again. Your post doesn't move things beyond





This is the way that al-Quaida meets out justice - no trial, no charges, just rumor, rage & immediate brutal execution & maiming of random individuals from the group who may have perpetrated an offense. It's like the old west lynchings. No innocent until proven guilty either! No judges,lawyers or appeals either



Update: In Big Shift, U.S. to Follow Geneva Treaty for Detainees and the actual DOD memo that is the subject of that report.
This appears to be good news

What will be interesting is how they comply with this part of Article 3:
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantes which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.


It appears as nothing new. The under secretary England is saying that everything besides the tribunals comply & for everyone to review & report any discrepancies.
Whether congress can really fix the tribunals is doubtful given the political climate to give terrorists all the civil rights in the US Constitution as well as access to all the info we have on them & maybe one of Johnny Cochran's friends as a defense lawyer.
Further updates as the Washington Post weighs in on what's happening ...
Six European allies have demanded that President Bush shut down the prison for terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, citing violations of international law and mistreatment of detainees.
And the Supreme Court recently issued a rebuke of the military commissions created by the administration to try detainees, declaring that they violated the Geneva Conventions and were never properly authorized by Congress.
Accustomed to having its way on matters related to the nation's security, the administration is being forced to respond to criticism that it once brushed aside. The high court ruling rejected the White House's assertion that the president has nearly unlimited executive powers during a time of war, and now executive branch lawyers are reviewing whether other rules adopted after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon will have to be revised, especially those concerning the Geneva Conventions.



LEAHY: The president has said very specifically, and he
The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.
~~Winston Churchill
A federal judge today ordered the release of a 30-year-old detainee from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the government's legal position on his continued confinement "defies common sense."
The detainee, a Syrian held at the military facility since early 2002, was tortured and imprisoned by Al Qaeda and the Taliban before being captured by U.S. forces and sent to Guantanamo Bay.
U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon ruled today from the bench that such circumstances make it "highly unlikely" that the Abdulrahim Abdul Razak Al Janko was still a member of the terror groups.

Grudges often last a lot more than 7 years. The Muslims & Jews have been going at a lot longer, centuries??



A federal judge today ordered the release of a 30-year-old detainee from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the government's legal position on his continued confinement "defies common sense."
The detainee, a Syrian held at the military facility since early 2002, was tortured and imprisoned by Al Qaeda and the Taliban before being captured by U.S. forces and sent to Guantanamo Bay.
U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon ruled today from the bench that such circumstances make it "highly unlikely" that the Abdulrahim Abdul Razak Al Janko was still a member of the terror groups.

Grudges often last a lot more than 7 years. The Muslims & Jews have been going at a lot longer, centuries??


A federal judge today ordered the release of a 30-year-old detainee from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the government's legal position on his continued confinement "defies common sense."
The detainee, a Syrian held at the military facility since early 2002, was tortured and imprisoned by Al Qaeda and the Taliban before being captured by U.S. forces and sent to Guantanamo Bay.
U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon ruled today from the bench that such circumstances make it "highly unlikely" that the Abdulrahim Abdul Razak Al Janko was still a member of the terror groups.

Grudges often last a lot more than 7 years. The Muslims & Jews have been going at a lot longer, centuries??
A federal judge today ordered the release of a 30-year-old detainee from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the government's legal position on his continued confinement "defies common sense."
The detainee, a Syrian held at the military facility since early 2002, was tortured and imprisoned by Al Qaeda and the Taliban before being captured by U.S. forces and sent to Guantanamo Bay.
U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon ruled today from the bench that such circumstances make it "highly unlikely" that the Abdulrahim Abdul Razak Al Janko was still a member of the terror groups.

Grudges often last a lot more than 7 years. The Muslims & Jews have been going at a lot longer, centuries??
A federal judge today ordered the release of a 30-year-old detainee from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the government's legal position on his continued confinement "defies common sense."
The detainee, a Syrian held at the military facility since early 2002, was tortured and imprisoned by Al Qaeda and the Taliban before being captured by U.S. forces and sent to Guantanamo Bay.
U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon ruled today from the bench that such circumstances make it "highly unlikely" that the Abdulrahim Abdul Razak Al Janko was still a member of the terror groups.












Hopefully in the next election these disconnects by the candidate will be held accountable.


Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., called the charge "palpably false" and said the White House has not provided any evidence to back up the claim.
"He meant to say that 770 people or more became terrorists because we have a prison at Guantanamo?" Kyl said on "FOX News Sunday."
"9/11 hijackers didn't do their deeds because of Gitmo. The people who ... blew up the (U.S.S.) Cole or the Kolbar Towers or the first World Trade Center didn't say, 'There's Gitmo down there,' because it didn't exist. And even after that I don't think you saw guys sitting around in some coffee shop in Saudi Arabia, saying, 'You know, those Americans have this prison called Gitmo, I think I'll become a terrorist,'" he said. "I mean, it's palpably false to suggest that the existence of Gitmo created terrorism, and yet the president gets away with that."

As a safeguard against torture, Mr. Panetta said, the United States would rely on diplomatic assurances of good treatment. The Bush administration sought the same assurances, which critics say are ineffective.



Hopefully in the next election these disconnects by the candidate will be held accountable.

What would candidate Obama say upon hearing the news that President Obama's attorney general acknowledged yesterday that the administration will continue to hold terror suspects without trial indefinitely?
Yesterday, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee that only about a quarter of the detainees now held at Guantanamo Bay would ever get a trial -- civilian or military. Sen. Lindsey Graham said he thought roughly 25 percent of detainees would stand trial, and Holder said that figure was "about right," the Associated Press reported.
"I don't think we're going to have a very huge number" go to trial, Holder reiterated.


Patron: Would you have any of the 2008 Obama Roseannadanna?
Somelier: Of course sir. It complements the fish, the bull and the tripe.

Federal prosecutors had argued that even though Rassak was tortured by al-Qaida as a suspected Western spy and imprisoned by the Taliban for a year and a half, he still maintained some kind of allegiance to his tormentors.
"I disagree!" wrote the judge, adding that U.S. officials are "taking a position that defies common sense."
The judge said the government and the U.S. media initially mistook Rassak as one of a number of suicide martyrs, based on a videotape captured at an al-Qaida safehouse. Further investigation found the tape actually showed al-Qaida torturing him.
In a 13-page written decision, the judge heaped scorn on the suggestion that Rassak could be part of the same terrorist organizations that had abused him.
Rassak, a Syrian, had admitted to U.S. interrogators that in 2000, he stayed for several days at a guesthouse used by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters, where he helped clean weapons, and then briefly attended a terror training camp.
"There is no evidence — from either side — as to why he suddenly was suspected by al-Qaida leaders of spying and was tortured for months into giving a false confession," Leon wrote. "It is highly unlikely that by that point in time al-Qaida (or the Taliban) had any trust or confidence in him. Surely extreme treatment of that nature evinces a total evisceration of whatever relationship might have existed!"
One of the detainee's lawyers, Steven Wax, said the judge's decision "is yet another reminder that there are innocent men in Guantanamo."
Wax said his client "was conscripted by the Taliban and, when he wanted to leave, was imprisoned and then subjected to barbaric torture. He was imprisoned by the United States when he tried to provide information to us about his torturers."
Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said it was reviewing the judge's ruling.
Since his captivity at Guantanamo, Rassak has adopted a different last name, Janko.
There are 229 detainees still held at the U.S. military base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. President Barack Obama ordered the detention center closed by early next year.

















Track your own deletions, distortions & generalizations:(common human groking)

In January 2002, US military forces found him in a notorious Afghan prison where Al Qaeda and Taliban officials allegedly tortured him for 18 months because they suspected he was an American spy.

In January 2002, US military forces found him in a notorious Afghan prison where Al Qaeda and Taliban officials allegedly tortured him for 18 months because they suspected he was an American spy.



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