Showing the horrors of war


There is a difference between awareness and obsession.  I think that editing the horrors of the war from Mainstream Media is a bad idea.   Shielding people from these horrors makes them more likely to wage war.  Now they have a some kind of law (i think) that you cannot even show the bodies comming back.  That is stupid.  People should see the effects of their votes as directly as possible. 

Warning ... some images in this item and the accopaning commentary depict horror.  If you do not have the stomach for seeing it, then you should consider whether you have the stomach for waging war and for voting for politicians who wage war with insufficient reasons.

What about the children? What about the terror?







Tags

  1. war dead
  2. terror
  3. war
  4. anti-war
  5. politics
  6. horrors of war
  7. shame
  8. war crimes
  9. congo

Comments


Mark de LA says
& to be in balance with:
source: ... People should see the effects of their votes as directly as possible. 
...people should also see the effects of what the terrorists (who voted for them ?) do.  Does anyone take pictures of the bodies left behind by the terrorists?  One of the tricks of terrorists is to take the maimed bodies of their victims & move them somewhere else & claim that Americans did it.  Then the pictures are published on  Aljazeera!

Mark de LA says
Credit Seth with the original on this. Also see 1722.

Seth says
M 2006-07-21 07:13:34 3983
Credit Seth with the original on this. Also see 1722.
What i said is not positioned correctly here either ... and i will delete it when i get .   Nor does what i said have anything to do with your 1722 which you trounce out whevever someone defends what they say against your bs.  You use your 1722 like a rhetorical weapon.  Sorry im immune.  Especially because, and you really should count them, when we have these run on arguments, it is always you who carry it that one step beyond what is necessary to inform the dialogue.  Usually it is I who just thinks enough is enough and stops the game by not responding. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-07-21 07:38:29 3983
M 2006-07-21 07:13:34 3983
Credit Seth with the original on this. Also see 1722.
What i said is not positioned correctly here either ... and i will delete it when i get .   Nor does what i said have anything to do with your 1722 which you trounce out whevever someone defends what they say against your bs.  You use your 1722 like a rhetorical weapon.  Sorry im immune.  Especially because, and you really should count them, when we have these run on arguments, it is always you who carry it that one step beyond what is necessary to inform the dialogue.  Usually it is I who just thinks enough is enough and stops the game by not responding. 
I rest my case! about 1722. Position it where you like, but not on my flower power item - it is grossly inappropriate there.

Mark de LA says
Long for the good old days?
source: ... Cambodia's "Killing Fields" extremist Maoists regime, under an estimated 1.7 million people were executed. Many of their victims were tortured, others died of starvation, disease and overwork. The purpose of Khmer Rouge assault same as what we believe. They never accepted a peace and justice solutions. Problem with Khamer Rouge with terrorism because they never wanted peace only killing innocent, and destroying children.
...See this LA times article.
Just how would you take a picture of 1.7 million people in a killing field ? Saddam had his too - just not that large (he spread his throughout the country).



Mark de LA says
I think that pictures of the dead is generally thought to be against the Geneva Conventions. None of the civilized nations do it. In the end it just helps the enemy who rejoice & are emboldened.

Seth says
M 2006-07-21 10:02:29 3983
I think that pictures of the dead is generally thought to be against the Geneva Conventions. None of the civilized nations do it. 
A specific reference to the Geneva Convention would be in order.  But, who knows, i might be out of step with some current conventions in this regard ... obviously the US Mainstream Media is avoiding it.  Doesn't change my opinion. 

Also i have not seen as many Israli pictures.  Why is that?  Is is because they also have a prohibition to showing them, or is it that count for count there just are not that many.  Certainly the death tolls are disproportinate.  The same goes for US casualties vs Iraqi casualties. This infromation is important for people to judge the scale of the conflict and be aware of what is actually happening.  Me thinks that the forces who are promoting war have, perhaps inadvertantly, insunuated this censorship concept into the culture.  It helps the war.  It does not help the peace.

In the end it just helps the enemy who rejoice & are emboldened.
It also helps the forces of peace.  


Mark de LA says
uri http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/dead-and-wounded.html gives some clues. The First Geneva convention articles 15 and 17 are here .The emphasis is on "despoiling" the dead. It is hard to read through the Geneva Conventions there being 4 plus protocol additions. One would have to be a lawyer schooled in international law to untagle it.


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-07-21 13:04:08 3983
Yep nothin in that "Dead and Wounded" article about taking and publishing pictures of coffins respectifully draped in flags ... nor of living children in terror of bombs ... nor for that matter of bodies raviged by war.
YEP - coffins yes, the actual dead is probably against the law

That the US population has no stomach for seeing these effects of war tells us that they have no stomach for the reality of war.
Yep, Osama BinLaden watched Clinton's behavior during the "blackhawk down" episode in Somalia & concluded the same thing & so miscalculated that he could get away with 9-11 - & so far he has personally. 

I agree with you in principle & I am against war as well.  Where we differ is what to do about it. What is a good war? Are you against all wars - even to protect (say) Washington State? Do you have a principle that says wait for the terrorists to act before waging a war to protect the US ? Do you just hate Bush & are thus against anything he does at all? 

Terrorism is a new kind of war - it's hard to distinguish the terrorists from the innocents.  How would you fight it given that America's enemies are already armed & ready? Call a cease-fire? Will terrorists observe a cease fire without America's  or Israel's capitulation ?  It is a bit too late to remove war's cause in poverty isn't it? What would you do about the Islamic madrassas preaching hate of America?  
It may be hard to believe now but it takes time to eliminate the causes of war. 

Seth says
Yep nothin in that "Dead and Wounded" article about taking and publishing pictures of coffins respectifully draped in flags ... nor of living children in terror of bombs ... nor for that matter of bodies raviged by war.  The soldier who was court-martialed for poseing in a photograph holding the decapitated heads of two enemy corpses is not the same thing as publishing photographs of events that happened with no intent on the part of the journalists.  Like i said, i think that Congress passed a law against showing the coffins, but i am not sure about that.  In any case it would not change my opinion.  There should be no aspect of the war that is censored from the media ... with, of course, the exception of security issues.  That the US population has no stomach for seeing these effects of war tells us that they have no stomach for the reality of war.  Perhaps they should avoide waging it. 

Here is some terror from the other side.  Same thing.  Different context.


Mark de LA says
Yep, you get what you focus on.

Seth says
M 2006-07-24 09:47:28 3983
Yep, you get what you focus on.
Now there is a myth.  I've been focusing on financial succes for decades now to no avail.  Like i said there is a difference between focus  (read  awareness) and obsession ... but of course you ignore that.  Now it is true that on today's Internet you can find examples of just about anything you go out looking for ... when you use those examples implying that they are all there is to say on the subject, you are using the rhetorical tactic i call "cherry picking".  There was a article (sorry didnt't bookmark it) where an Israli accused the media of not showing the atocities against them.  If anyone finds images of those atrocities, then i will post them in this item ... they need to be here ... it is all the same terror.   If you want to contribute to this item, please contribute or detribute to the essence of what it is saying instead of diverting attention to something else on your adgenda.  My point here is that this is what the horrors of the war against terriorism looks like.  Editing those horrors out of our awareness of this war is sticking our neck in the sand.  It just makes it easier for governments to to wage this kind of war.   It is not ethical to edit those images  away.   That editing tells a lie. 

Mark de LA says
I'm sure you could find the horrors that the terrorists perpetrate if you wanted to. Just look for them as hard as you look for the ones that prove your point. 

BTW, if you are focusing on financial success from the viewpoint of scarcity you probably missed the point.


Mark de LA says
And then there are journalists who pose & fake pictures like the ones documented in this article: Milking It ? And believe it or not these are AP (& other news agencies)  - not supposed to be the enemy, eh ?


Seth says
M 2006-07-31 21:20:32 3983
And then there are journalists who pose & fake pictures like the ones documented in this article: Milking It ? And believe it or not these are AP (& other news agencies)  - not supposed to be the enemy, eh ?

Well in this asymmetrical war there are combatants and innocents and the media.  The combatants have their battle stratagies.  The media has its evolving scripts. Those scripts target the hearts and minds of the populations within nations.  The power structures within nations manipulate and interact to the events on the battle field and to their populations.  The media loves the war.  Even the people in their armchairs far away from the battel field love the war. The profiteers love the war.  If a war is won ... and i have a feeling this one won't be won ... it is won in the hearts and minds of people.  At the moment Hezbollah is winning the war.  Shame on them. And shame on all who have a dog in this war.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-01 05:23:44 3983
M 2006-07-31 21:20:32 3983
And then there are journalists who pose & fake pictures like the ones documented in this article: Milking It ? And believe it or not these are AP (& other news agencies)  - not supposed to be the enemy, eh ?

Well in this asymmetrical war there are combatants and innocents and the media.  The combatants have their battle stratagies.  The media has its evolving scripts. Those scripts target the hearts and minds of the populations within nations.  The power structures within nations manipulate and interact to the events on the battle field and to their populations.  The media loves the war.  Even the people in their armchairs far away from the battel field love the war. The profiteers love the war.  If a war is won ... and i have a feeling this one won't be won ... it is won in the hearts and minds of people.  At the moment Hezbollah is winning the war.  Shame on them. And shame on all who have a dog in this war.
Apparently you have a dog in this war as well, then. Yours is to make everyone who doesn't oppose the war "wrong" - at least in your mind. Your tone suggests that it is OK for the media to LIE with photographs.

Seth says
M 2006-08-03 08:20:50 3983
Here is a nice editorial by Michelle Malkin The Theater of Jihad -
source: ...

As we watch Hezbollah's horrible parade of dead children in Qana replay endlessly on television, here is a suggestion for all the intrepid American journalists gallivanting with Hezbollah's handlers in the region: Perhaps you could put down the figurative hookah pipes, take off your sympathy hajibs and find out the identity of the green-helmeted guy holding up baby corpses in Qana as props for your sensational, page-one pictures.

Is he just an ordinary bystander? A rescuer who just happened to be in the same place 10 years ago, traipsing around with dead children's bodies to exploit an accidental Israeli bombing prompted by terrorists hiding behind civilians?

A civilian volunteer or a propaganda producer?

... asks more questions including why a nice new pacifier in one of the baby pictures
Yep, apparently Hezbollah is better at propoganda than the Isralies.

Seth says
M 2006-08-03 09:10:12 3983
So Seth is applauding the Hezbos' propaganda, lies & hiding behind women & children to draw fire for their outrage ?

I merely pointed out another story that supported your message. What i pointed out was not just an OpEd piece, but a well documented occurance.  The world's sympathies are truning, here is an example from a famous blogger who is a Jew expressing his change of heart.  This change in sympathy is in part due to Hezbolah's propoganda.  Pointing out that they are being successful is not to applaud their cause.  You seem always to be so anxious to paint me in the wrong, that you continually miss my message

Mark de LA says
My message is that the Hezbos are faking it & telling lies & the media is complicit.  Yours was that the Hezbos are better at propaganda. I don't see yours as supporting mine !


Seth says
Here is another piece documenting the one sided coverage. The thing to remember is that Israel is doing the best they can not to target civilians and that Hezbollah is lobbing missils directly at civilians.  There is a big difference between objective coverage and amplifying propoganda.  I don't want to see this war just from the eyes of the Hezbollah.  That is why i subscribe to blogs like Isralie cool. We know that the media has a dog in this war.  They should have the decency to reign him in. 


Mark de LA says
And here is some more Reuters picture fakery! And here as well. Does this make you wonder post-Photoshop what really is real?
Btw bloggers discovered the anomalies in the pictures. The original blogs are swamped & hard to access right now.


Seth says
Here is a collage of the horrors of war from the other side of the boarder.  This was sent to me by a friend of mine in Israel who experienced this first hand ... you will not see these images in the press.  The Hezbollah puts these bee bee in their bombs to maximize the damage.  Imagine having these things comming at you ...



Seth says
M 2006-08-30 20:25:10 3983
Do the same for the suicide bombers who go into a pizza parlor and blow themselves up with c4 + as many ball bearings as they can pack into a suicide vest!
Yep they are just as evil.  The obvious never does escape M's vigilant eye.

Seth says
Point is that israel just does not care.  But for those of you who like to judge, here is one circumstance where you should stand up and be heard.  I think it sucks that Israeli military operations are so callous about innocent life.  Now the moral thing to do is to step froward and take responsibility for it and stop trying to justify it as necessary for  survival.  Bull Shit I say.  The Israel should verify each of these cases and show the verified ones on Isralie TV.  Then maybe there leaders will be forced to contrive more cival (and btw effective) means to defend themselves against acts of terror.  That is my value judgement. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-31 02:31:45 3983
M 2006-08-30 20:25:10 3983
Do the same for the suicide bombers who go into a pizza parlor and blow themselves up with c4 + as many ball bearings as they can pack into a suicide vest!
Yep they are just as evil.  The obvious never does escape M's vigilant eye.
Snide & ad hominem as usual!

Seth says
M 2006-08-31 21:59:46 3983
M 2006-08-31 05:27:23 3983
seth 2006-08-31 02:31:45 3983
M 2006-08-30 20:25:10 3983
Do the same for the suicide bombers who go into a pizza parlor and blow themselves up with c4 + as many ball bearings as they can pack into a suicide vest!
Yep they are just as evil.  The obvious never does escape M's vigilant eye.
Snide & ad hominem as usual!
I don't know which is worse a cluster bomb or a bomb filled with shrapnel intended to inflict as much human damage as possible, do you ?
They are equally dispickable.   Look let me put it to you this way.  You are  in a old time Western bar. Lots of friends around.  A desperado walks in and befrends half of the people in the bar.  He starts a fight with you.  To punish you, the desperado shoots one of your friends.  To punish him, you shoot one of his friends.  To punish you, he shoots one of your friends.  To punish him, you shoot one of his friends.  etc etc ...     Now tell me, who is worse?  You or him?  An innocent person, killed in a fight, is an innocent person killed in a fight.  Makes no difference who started it.  His killing your friend, does not justify your killing his friend.  That Hezbollah killed innocent Jews, does not justify Jews negligently killing innocent children.  For you to respond about what the other side did, as if it mitiggated the crime, is to show me a error in your moral thinking.  You should accept that Israel was guilty of negligance here.  They lost some of their humanity.  The did not care enough about innocent lives to think to protect them in the fight.  Saying that the other side did worse, is part of the problem, it does not inform,  it does nothing but help to perpetuate the problem.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 09:35:30 3983
M 2006-09-01 08:52:18 3983
I guess Seth is the only one confused here, I am NOT! Get rid of ALL killing!
That is just another distraction.  Another thing that apparently the mind does to run away from the unpleasant guilt.  Insteade of accepting it, you generalize it!  Killing in war has a very specific place in modern culture ... guess what ... most societies consider it justified.  Well this is a case where we are carefully drawing a very specific distinction.  This is a kind of killing in war that is not justified. 

And, just fyi, your little comment "Seth is the only one confused here" is the adhominem that would justify me saying back "You are still confused".  And, btw, your message would have had more persuasive value if you had articulated it without that adhominem.  In fact, had you have articulated it without the adhominem, which took up 3/4 of the text, you might have come to the same conclusion that i did.  But certainly, had you articulated it without the adhominem, it would have been more likely that i would have been persuaded by your message.
Well, in my mind there really isn't good killing & bad killing during a war - or really in any other context. I see nothing moral on either side of the game. I have no guilt for any of it, BTW. 

Mark de LA says
M 2006-08-31 05:27:23 3983
seth 2006-08-31 02:31:45 3983
M 2006-08-30 20:25:10 3983
Do the same for the suicide bombers who go into a pizza parlor and blow themselves up with c4 + as many ball bearings as they can pack into a suicide vest!
Yep they are just as evil.  The obvious never does escape M's vigilant eye.
Snide & ad hominem as usual!
I don't know which is worse a cluster bomb or a bomb filled with shrapnel intended to inflict as much human damage as possible, do you ?

Mark de LA says
Yep, killing is bad. War is Hell. What's your solution ? Stop killing ? Good Idea! Now then with all the killing stopped does anybody get the chance to defend themselves against agression ? Without that moral leap in all mankind or the ability to isolate those who have it from those who don't it always ends up in the same place. If you turn the other cheek over & over again you will end up with a bloody face and a sore neck. Isolate the assholes from the rest of us please!


Seth says
M 2006-09-01 05:02:59 3983
Yep, killing is bad. War is Hell. What's your solution ? Stop killing ? Good Idea! Now then with all the killing stopped does anybody get the chance to defend themselves against agression ? Without that moral leap in all mankind or the ability to isolate those who have it from those who don't it always ends up in the same place. If you turn the other cheek over & over again you will end up with a bloody face and a sore neck. Isolate the assholes from the rest of us please!
From my perspective all of that is another topic.  Shame on Hezbollah for killing innocent Jews.  Shame on Israel for killing innocent Lebanease. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 07:53:00 3983
M 2006-09-01 05:02:59 3983
Yep, killing is bad. War is Hell. What's your solution ? Stop killing ? Good Idea! Now then with all the killing stopped does anybody get the chance to defend themselves against agression ? Without that moral leap in all mankind or the ability to isolate those who have it from those who don't it always ends up in the same place. If you turn the other cheek over & over again you will end up with a bloody face and a sore neck. Isolate the assholes from the rest of us please!
From my perspective all of that is another topic.  Shame on Hezbollah for killing innocent Jews.  Shame on Israel for killing innocent Lebanease. 
I'll see your shame and raise you 1000 of 'em.  Shame on anyone who kills another for any reason. Innocent or not!

Seth says
What is interesting is that this syndrom of confusing the moral case against involving innocent civilians in a conflict is common pattern of thought.  It is not just Mark, it is a learned pattern of response.  For example, check out some of the comments on  this article "Pressure to ban cluster bombs".  But if we are to elevate the moral fabric of our civilization, it is time to invent a anit-pattern here.  When you hear this kind of so called argument, shout back:  Don't confuse the issue!  This shame is not mitigated by anything the enemy does! The only thing that will ever mitigate that shame is if you set policies and follow them which prevent such actions in the future. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 08:48:59 3983
What is interesting is that this syndrom of confusing the moral case against involving innocent civilians in a conflict is common pattern of thought.  It is not just Mark, it is a learned pattern of response.  For example, check out some of the comments on  this article "Pressure to ban cluster bombs".  But if we are to elevate the moral fabric of our civilization, it is time to invent a anit-pattern here.  When you hear this kind of so called argument, shout back:  Don't confuse the issue!  This shame is not mitigated by anything the enemy does! The only thing that will ever mitigate that shame is if you set policies and follow them which prevent such actions in the future. 
I guess Seth is the only one confused here, I am NOT! Get rid of ALL killing!

Seth says
M 2006-09-01 08:52:18 3983
I guess Seth is the only one confused here, I am NOT! Get rid of ALL killing!
That is just another distraction.  Another thing that apparently the mind does to run away from the unpleasant guilt.  Insteade of accepting it, you generalize it!  Killing in war has a very specific place in modern culture ... guess what ... most societies consider it justified.  Well this is a case where we are carefully drawing a very specific distinction.  This is a kind of killing in war that is not justified. 

And, just fyi, your little comment "Seth is the only one confused here" is the adhominem that would justify me saying back "You are still confused".  And, btw, your message would have had more persuasive value if you had articulated it without that adhominem.  In fact, had you have articulated it without the adhominem, which took up 3/4 of the text, you might have come to the same conclusion that i did.  But certainly, had you articulated it without the adhominem, it would have been more likely that i would have been persuaded by your message.

Seth says
M 2006-09-01 11:31:33 3983
Well, in my mind there really isn't good killing & bad killing during a war - or really in any other context. I see nothing moral on either side of the game.  
But what about wars justified as self defense ?

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 11:58:47 3983
M 2006-09-01 11:31:33 3983
Well, in my mind there really isn't good killing & bad killing during a war - or really in any other context. I see nothing moral on either side of the game.  
But what about wars justified as self defense ?
That's where you have to be Zen or Christian to wrap yourself around it. The trick is to stop things very early in the game before they get to that point. JC talked about "if a man want's your coat - give him your great coat also." etc. I don't yet know what to do about the insane & sociopaths - nor for that matter people who love death more than life. In the latter case it may be necessary to give them what they want.

Seth says
M 2006-09-01 12:14:34 3983
seth 2006-09-01 11:58:47 3983
M 2006-09-01 11:31:33 3983
Well, in my mind there really isn't good killing & bad killing during a war - or really in any other context. I see nothing moral on either side of the game.  
But what about wars justified as self defense ?
That's where you have to be Zen or Christian to wrap yourself around it. The trick is to stop things very early in the game before they get to that point. JC talked about "if a man want's your coat - give him your great coat also." etc. I don't yet know what to do about the insane & sociopaths - nor for that matter people who love death more than life. In the latter case it may be necessary to give them what they want.
That is just like wishing for peace on earth.  It sounds nice in a Chrismas Carol but does not contain any real political action.  Posing it as "the solution" just servs to distracts from the effort of changing the thinking in Israel about using tactics where the civilian population bears the brunt of the damage.  I don't know whether Israel will be condemmed for using cluster bombs in the UN or not.  The US would probably veto such a resolution.  But if the US would also vote for that resolution it might send a much needed message to Israel.  We will see what happens.

Mark de LA says
S, one of your friends is shouting on 4238 


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 12:36:46 3983
M 2006-09-01 12:14:34 3983
seth 2006-09-01 11:58:47 3983
M 2006-09-01 11:31:33 3983
Well, in my mind there really isn't good killing & bad killing during a war - or really in any other context. I see nothing moral on either side of the game.  
But what about wars justified as self defense ?
That's where you have to be Zen or Christian to wrap yourself around it. The trick is to stop things very early in the game before they get to that point. JC talked about "if a man want's your coat - give him your great coat also." etc. I don't yet know what to do about the insane & sociopaths - nor for that matter people who love death more than life. In the latter case it may be necessary to give them what they want.
That is just like wishing for peace on earth.  It sounds nice in a Chrismas Carol but does not contain any real political action.  Posing it as "the solution" just servs to distracts from the effort of changing the thinking in Israel about using tactics where the civilian population bears the brunt of the damage.  I don't know whether Israel will be condemmed for using cluster bombs in the UN or not.  The US would probably veto such a resolution.  But if the US would also vote for that resolution it might send a much needed message to Israel.  We will see what happens.
When it comes down to the nitty-gritty S is neither a pacifist nor anti-war (neither Zen nor Christian). Think it through my advice was sound but may be too late for the gathering storm. Neither side has the moral high-ground with the armaments of war that they use. Why not condemn them both in a resolution? (Unless you have already chosen sides against Israel.)

Seth says
M 2006-09-01 13:24:39 3983
No preemptive war? So If you knew about Osama bin Laden before 9-11 would you not have got him first? Clinton sure didn't preempt & he pretty much knew about it but otherwise blew it
There is a big difference between a preemptive war like what we did in Iraq and VietNam and apprehending terrorists before they strike.  Yes Clinton blew it.  But there we go with that 20-20 hind sight. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 13:04:12 3983
M 2006-09-01 12:42:07 3983
S, one of your friends is shouting on 4238 
Would you have me call someone your friend who expressess an opinion with which you disagree? Do i need to quote back to you, your own scripture?
source: M in 4299
Choose NOW to see everything through the lens of the Golden Rule & NOT through the lenses of an eye for an eye, tit-for-tat, everyone else's hypocrisy & all the rest.
And, for the record, it is a lie that he is my friend, or that i have friends who think like he does.
OOPS! sorry never mind. I thought he was one of yours there for a minute. Thanks for the correction. It would be interesting if you could actually just talk him out of his position to your point of view;  just using talk!

I guess I could point out your hypocrisy for pointing out my hypocrisy but that would violate the spirit of the quote so I won't do that.... never mind.

Mark de LA says
No preemptive war? So If you knew about Osama bin Laden before 9-11 would you not have got him first? Clinton sure didn't preempt & he pretty much knew about it but otherwise blew it


Seth says
M 2006-09-01 12:59:34 3983
When it comes down to the nitty-gritty S is neither a pacifist nor anti-war (neither Zen nor Christian). 
I acknowledge that war is sometimes necessary for self defense.  I do not call preemptive warfare, which is waged to eliminate conjectured future threats, self defense.
Neither side has the moral high-ground with the armaments of war that they use. Why not condemn them both in a resolution? (Unless you have already chosen sides against Israel.)
I would vote for such a resolution.

Seth says
M 2006-09-01 13:10:36 3983
 Thanks for the correction. It would be interesting if you could actually just talk him out of his position to your point of view;  just using talk!
Apology accepted .  Actually i do intend to respond to ali reza but it will take a moment, first i have to try and comprehend what he is really saying.  That takes quite a bit of time, not something that i can just knee jerk dash off.  Do i hope for dialogue with this fellow?  ... nope, no such hope.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 08:48:59 3983
What is interesting is that this syndrom of confusing the moral case against involving innocent civilians in a conflict is common pattern of thought.  It is not just Mark, it is a learned pattern of response.  For example, check out some of the comments on  this article "Pressure to ban cluster bombs".  But if we are to elevate the moral fabric of our civilization, it is time to invent a anit-pattern here.  When you hear this kind of so called argument, shout back:  Don't confuse the issue!  This shame is not mitigated by anything the enemy does! The only thing that will ever mitigate that shame is if you set policies and follow them which prevent such actions in the future. 
It was only recently that someone began to make the distinction between "civilians" & combatants. No such thing existed in WW-II or the Korean Police Action. I'm not sure whether there was any such problem in VietNam or not. Suddenly one day somebody thought up the idea of smart-bombs & innocent civilians to hide the problem that the enemy combatants began to hide amongst their own non-combatant population in order not to get hit. I suspect that not all non-combatants are innocent. There is also the consideration of who is responsible for the enemy combatants who are hidden?  Why don't the innocent civilians throw out those making war whilst hiding amongst them (if they really are innocent)?  Why don't the armies of the countries harboring enemy combatants not aligned with the government throw the combatants out? Why don't the innocent civilians at least topple the government that is protecting the combatants?  The jury is out on whether the term "innocent civilians" is just another euphemism or just one of those PC terms.

Seth says
M 2006-09-01 14:23:21 3983
 I suspect that not all non-combatants are innocent. There is also the consideration of who is responsible for the enemy combatants who are hidden?  Why don't the innocent civilians throw out those making war whilst hiding amongst them (if they really are innocent)?  Why don't the armies of the countries harboring enemy combatants not aligned with the government throw the combatants out? Why don't the innocent civilians at least topple the government that is protecting the combatants?  The jury is out on whether the term "innocent civilians" is just another euphemism or just one of those PC terms.
I think this is a legitimate point and one that should be addressed.  I belive there is on-going discussion of it at the UN and in other circles.  More reading is required.  Things change, war changes, we change war and the acceptable practices of it.  We should address the topic in the context of how to improve International Law and bring it into the 21th century.  Not in the context of the barbarisms of the past.  I'm not going to respond further until more knowledge emerges. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-01 16:24:00 3983
I'm not going to respond further until more knowledge emerges. 
Well, what do you expect to emerge? Most of what I said was & is common sense. The Geneva Conventions have proved to be ambiguous (Gitmo & Abu Ghraib).  Most of what the terrorists & Hezbos do is against the Geneva Conventions. What good does it do to write rules for people who will not follow any ?  To me the notion that there are rules of war is silly.


Mark de LA says
This item is getting long enough to bifurcate! 


Seth says
M 2006-09-01 18:39:28 3983
To me the notion that there are rules of war is silly.
I think the idea of rules of war started around the the 17th century but has not quite kept pace with modern weapons and tactics.  The idea that there is a community of nations which can bring other nations into acceptable behavior started in the 20th centrury.  It is obviously a very tenuous proposition as yet, but one that is not fundamentally flawed.  Humans ability to follow rules has grown with the emergence of civilization.   To  me the notion hearlds progress. 
I give it three thumbs up .

Seth says
I watched these CNN videos and did not find them particularly infomative.  The message was more just scary, seeing our solders down the barrel of the enemy.  I think CNN made the wrong call.
source: news busters Hunter If People Have the Right to Know What War is Like
Blitzer first aired a setup piece by Brian Todd which mostly sounded like a network executive

Mark de LA says
More war dead than Iraq, Afganistan & Darfur combined! > 4 million & counting!
source: ...
The civil war in Congo is an ethnic conflict, but gender has become a crucial factor. Women are bearing the brunt of one of the horrible weapons used in the war: rape. CNN's Anderson Cooper reports.
... Rape is the instrument of terror  <<= link to 12 min movie at CBS  "rape is the norm" How can such animal behavior exist in today's world ?
This should put a few things & war dead in a different perspective  Among other things this situation shows the utter incompetence of the UN.

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