Heat makes Pat Robertson a global warming convert





On thing about global warming is that inevitably everyone will give up their skepticism. 


Tags

  1. global warming
  2. pat robertson
  3. junkscience

Comments


Mark de LA says
Until the coming Ice Age  See It's snowing in South Africa.


Mark de LA says
News is not all bad though - there is a new beer being made from Artic Ice


Seth says
M 2006-08-04 08:38:14 4084
See also The Real Inconvenient Truth !
I know you like this old site, i guess it does not bother you that they are feeding your a distorted picture.  For example they say ...
Does the Earth's atmosphere primarily behave like an actual greenhouse?

No. The term "greenhouse effect" is unfortunate since it often results in a totally false impression of the activity of so-called "greenhouse gases." An actual greenhouse works as a physical barrier to convection (the transfer of heat by currents in a fluid) while the atmosphere facilitates convection. So-called "greenhouse gases" in the Earth's atmosphere do not act as a barrier to convection so the impression of actual greenhouse-like activity in the Earth's atmosphere is wrong.
But the well studied situation in the athmosphere works by absorption and not convection as in a real greenhouse.  No climate scientist has ever denied this effect.  A moment's study would uncover that distortion of the facts.  You might start at Wikipedia's article on the Greenhouse effect.

They then speculate "whether physical greenhouses function as convection" but don't seem to settle on the actual mechanism of absorption, even though it is clearly shown in their own diagram about which they say: "we were unable to find useful graphics adequately expressing convection" ... No, Daha.  Then several questions later they are still beating this straw man ...
Are greenhouse gases like a blanket around the Earth?

No, for the same reason that they don't behave like an actual greenhouse, they simply do not behave as a barrier to convective activity and so aren't "like a blanket."
Sorry at that point i stopped reading and started scanning.  Why not post some new articles from scientist of merit that are arguing with real science and not junk science ?

Mark de LA says
For what it's worth here is a Gallup poll on Gore - apparently his movie is not helping much. 


Seth says
M 2006-08-04 09:58:00 4084
I have never pointed out this simplified summary before.  Apparently you failed to read the graphs & the arguments that the Earth does NOT behave like a greenhouse!  
Actually i did read them as a careful reading of my message above would uncover.  Now could you answer this question:  If the author of that page knows that, why did they spend roughfly 1/4 of their page even refuting it ?  The title of their page is "The Real 'Inconvenient Truth' Greenhouse, global warming - and some facts" ... but they are not talking about the same "global warming" that the real climate scientist are talking about.  Rather they are talking about some mythical misconception that some Archie Bunker type perons might have come to believe.  Well, , apparently they have found their target audience.

Seth says
M 2006-08-04 10:23:12 4084
I will pray for you ad hominem man !
Well apparently you don't want to deal with the substance of the issue ...
source: my question above
If the author of that page knows that, why did they spend roughfly 1/4 of their page even refuting it ?
... so what is left but name calling.  Btw, most of your disrespectful comments on my blog i tend to either ignore or cut out so that i can respond to the substantive part of your message.  I suppose you get a lot of fun out of projecting those disrespectful attitudes, but they do not improve the interest of my blog.  In fact i have had one of my friends say that he didnt't want to participate here because of the texture of dialogue that continually disrespects each other's comments.  Sure my comment about Archie Bunker types could have been taken as derogatory twards you ... but that comment contained my real complaint with the junk science site.  Would that you would have answered that real challenge, i would have gladly deleted it. I really would like to hear you address the real substance here:  Why refute an argument as if it is the real argument when it is patatently not ?

Mark de LA says
I read the article this moring for the first time. It made sense. It did not need a bunch of links to other sites (although it has some) which build on the authority of others who are prejudiced to one side or another. There is convection in the atmosphere - that's not worth debating. There is also convection in the oceans. Just because others are inconvenienced by that truth doesn't mean that I am.
The convection models were all fairly well argued, but you ignored them. There is also a discussion of the radiation & heat exchange in there as well. I liked this quote best from the article:
... If that's all the anticipated greenhouse effect, where do the big warming estimates come from?
Ah, this is where it gets rather contentious because the big warming numbers come not from measurements but from computer models. These computer models and their output are passionately defended by the modeling clique and frequently derided by empiricists -- but the bottom line is that models make an enormous range of assumptions. Whether all the assumptions, tweaks and parameter adjustments really collectively add up to a realistic representation of the atmosphere is open to some conjecture (current climate models do not model "natural" climatic variation very well), but there is no evidence yet that they can predict the future with any greater certainty than a pack of Tarot cards. Moreover, humans do a lot besides emitting greenhouse gases, changing vegetation and transpiration rates through agriculture, for example, and many effects expected to both increase and decrease regional temperatures are not included in these models.

Regardless, climate models are made interesting by the inclusion of "positive feedbacks" (multiplier effects) so that a small temperature increment expected from increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide invokes large increases in water vapor, which seem to produce exponential rather than logarithmic temperature response in the models. It appears to have become something of a game to see who can add in the most creative feedback mechanisms to produce the scariest warming scenarios from their models but there remains no evidence the planet includes any such effects or behaves in a similar manner....


Seth says
There is convection in the atmosphere - that's not worth debating. There is also convection in the oceans. Just because others are inconvenienced by that truth doesn't mean that I am. The convection models were all fairly well argued, but you ignored them.
Sure i ignored the "convection models".  The global warming that we are faced with has almost nothing to do with "convection".  I indicated that by saying " But the well studied situation in the athmosphere works by absorption and not convection".  My question still remains:  If your junk science article informs us with by "making so much sense", then why does it spend most of its time refuting a notion that the real scientist already know is absurd ?

Seth says
M 2006-08-04 11:21:31 4084
Heat makes Pat Robertson a global warming convert  
Hyping the current heat wave does the very same thing for the rest of us (except me!)
I always thought Pat Robinson should come inside out of the sun anyway!
Good point .

Seth says
M 2006-08-04 11:36:02 4084
Read the article carefully he also addressed the radiation & absorption ideas as well.
Yep he mentioned it.  Look if you strip the article of all the refutation of convection it might be worth reading again. 

Seth says
Actually to be fair to junk science the "What are the take-home message" section at the bottom of  the article does contain some propositions that are worth studying.  I believe that most of these have been answered in "How to Talk to a Global Warming Sceptic" a long time ago.   If you can shed some light on any of these propositions and their refutations (or lack thereof) i would be very interested in assisting your inquiry. 

Seth says
Well we can find something good in every situation ... cookies ... yummy





Mark de LA says
source: ... Pat is something of an icon on weather, if not necessarily an authority. He once commanded a killer hurricane to veer away from Virginia Beach, and it did. Let's see the theologians at the National Science Foundation do that.
&
source: ... Modern Scientific Man is obsessed with the notion that since there is no ordained order in the universe, it must have been man who did it. Modern Scientific Man's sidekick, Chicken Little, figures the hot weather we're having this summer proves it.
An amusing editorial from Wes Pruden of the Washington Times


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