Would that it was Otherwise

About: the jewish journal of greater los angeles

source: ... The extreme left has been disconcerting, ill informed and unable to make simple distinctions. One talk radio host, Randi Rhodes, has spoken of "genocide"; there might have been others She spoke without any idea of the meaning of the term or its codification in international law and by the Geneva Convention.
... not the best quote, but one to titilate your interest. There is something for both the right & the left. Read it ALL.

Tags

  1. jews versus moslems
  2. war
  3. randi rhodes
  4. scripts
  5. isralie
  6. about join-the-loop

Comments


Mark de LA says
source: ... ... failing to realize that burned deeply into the Shia belief sturcture is martyrdom.  These Muslims will not be intimidated.  They love to die.
... Any group of people who treasure death over life should be rejected by the human race & isolated from the World.  The idea that death is better than life is as insane as the Jonestown Cult & the Heaven's Gate Cult.


Seth says
M 2006-08-11 17:50:33 4138
source: ... ... failing to realize that burned deeply into the Shia belief sturcture is martyrdom.  These Muslims will not be intimidated.  They love to die.
... Any group of people who treasure death over life should be rejected by the human race & isolated from the World.  The idea that death is better than life is as insane as the Jonestown Cult & the Heaven's Gate Cult.
well the idea of splendor in heaven is a common theme in religion.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-12 02:52:09 4138
M 2006-08-11 17:50:33 4138
source: ... ... failing to realize that burned deeply into the Shia belief structure is martyrdom.  These Muslims will not be intimidated.  They love to die.
... Any group of people who treasure death over life should be rejected by the human race & isolated from the World.  The idea that death is better than life is as insane as the Jonestown Cult & the Heaven's Gate Cult.
well the idea of splendor in heaven is a common theme in religion.
Ignorance of the value of the life on Earth is a disease! It is not in any religion I believe in. Islam seems to be the only religion that praises martyrdom. In your studies do moderates believe in such insanity ?

Seth says
Good find  .  Certainly an articulate voicing of a Jewish script.  But this is a very pessimestic scrip and one which ignores the other side.  To this script the other side is constant, apparently incapable of initiative or change ... all we get is ...
"problems can not be solved, but they can be managed, and the goal of all policy, especially U.S. policy, should be management not resolution."
   He then systematically discards any paths that are feasable.  He casts off disengagement as dead, ....why? ... apparently to him it is just-so story.  He parrots the well worn script that withdrawal from the lands captured in 1967 was followed by violence in the past, and therefor it will yield violence in the future.  Apparently  his logic does comprehend that withdrawal is a necessary, but not a sufficient condition.  He then justifies disproportionate force as follows ...
source: Painful Lessons Emerge From War in Lebanon by Michael Berenbaum
Critics have argued that Israel's response is disproportionate, as if proportionality is a virtue. Deterrence is a virtue. When the other side is sufficiently powerful, those who do not want to die will not attack.
  ... failing to realize that burned deeply into the Shia belief sturcture is martyrdom.  These Muslims will not be intimidated.  They love to die.  Deterrence does not work on willing martyrs. Perhaps that has been part of Isralies failed stratagy for peace all along.

In the end he leaves us with nothing but dispair ... with just more of the same.  But the world is changing around Israel ... things will not remain the same.  I agree with him that Israel "must have a strategy that is achievable militarily and politically. Israel's strategy appears improvised." ... but there is no wisdom here to make it otherwise.

Mark de LA says
We'll see if UN resolution 1701 does any good - I suspect not.


Seth says
M 2006-08-12 03:58:33 4138
seth 2006-08-12 02:52:09 4138
M 2006-08-11 17:50:33 4138
source: ... ... failing to realize that burned deeply into the Shia belief structure is martyrdom.  These Muslims will not be intimidated.  They love to die.
... Any group of people who treasure death over life should be rejected by the human race & isolated from the World.  The idea that death is better than life is as insane as the Jonestown Cult & the Heaven's Gate Cult.
well the idea of splendor in heaven is a common theme in religion.
Ignorance of the value of the life on Earth is a disease! It is not in any religion I believe in. Islam seems to be the only religion that praises martyrdom. In your studies do moderates believe in such insanity ?
... whatever.  The point is that retaliating for terrorists acts does not deter future acts.   Wiping out a terrorist camp will remove that resource and those terrorists.  If you can get them all, you will stop it.  But to retaliate for a suicide bomber by wiping out the village from whence he came, will not convince the population which produced him, not to produce more.  Yet we have Israeli thinking that seems to assume that after a strike, they must retaliate or they will be perceived as weak.  That is horseshit.  Against the Shea, because of their beliefs in martyrdom,  retaliatory deterrence is particularly ill conceived.   We kind of got diverted from this point which concerned Israeli strategy.  I think it is a important point, and i will even entertain the idea that i am wrong about it.   But please don't just use it as an excuse to criticize Islam.

Seth says
M 2006-08-11 17:01:42 4138
We'll see if UN resolution 1701 does any good - I suspect not.
Well i suspect it will stop the massive Isralie move into Lebanon and we will start on the second part of the script.  Perhaps i will elaborate more on my node UN Resolution 1701.

Mark de LA says
Demolishing the family dwelling of a suicide bomber is a good idea! It ups the cost of doing business for the terrorist & his family. On the other side the family is praised for having a so-called martyr.  I'm sure that terrorist organizations can't continue to compensate families for their entire dwellings very long. This also prevents the calculus that would say that a person would be a suicide bomber for his family to benefit; being like an insurance policy.

Unfortunately some people still believe these people are sane !


Seth says
What i find interesting in (almost all) of your reactions is that you are so anxious to join in the right-wrong loop.  You love to hate your enemy.  Certainly you have not found those kind of reactions from this side of the computer ... have you?

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-12 09:23:17 4138
What i find interesting in (almost all) of your reactions is that you are so anxious to join in the right-wrong loop.  You love to hate your enemy.  Certainly you have not found those kind of reactions from this side of the computer ... have you?
For example ?

Mark de LA says
We sometimes forget that this has less to do with religion & more to do with politics, power, poverty & insanity.  It is the right-wrong game personified, codified & militarized. In the beginning the Jews, Christians & Mohammedans all respected each other's prophets & some of each other's scripture.


Seth says
M 2006-08-12 10:00:49 4138
seth 2006-08-12 09:23:17 4138
What i find interesting in (almost all) of your reactions is that you are so anxious to join in the right-wrong loop.  You love to hate your enemy.  Certainly you have not found those kind of reactions from this side of the computer ... have you?
For example ?
They are too numerious to collect.  The next time i see one go by, i will mark it as such by quoting or tagging it as "join-the-loop".

Seth says
M 2006-08-12 10:11:58 4138
We sometimes forget that this has less to do with religion & more to do with politics, power, poverty & insanity.  It is the right-wrong game personified, codified & militarized. In the beginning the Jews, Christians & Mohammedans all respected each other's prophets & some of each other's scripture.
I tend to agree.  The problem is that politicians use religion to manipulate those who believe in the religion. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-12 10:17:26 4138
M 2006-08-12 10:11:58 4138
We sometimes forget that this has less to do with religion & more to do with politics, power, poverty & insanity.  It is the right-wrong game personified, codified & militarized. In the beginning the Jews, Christians & Mohammedans all respected each other's prophets & some of each other's scripture.
I tend to agree.  The problem is that politicians use religion to manipulate those who believe in the religion. 
& they use money for those that believe in money & they use patriotism for those who believe in patriotism .....etc .  so what? A politician is a whore to what will get him/her/it elected!

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-12 10:28:48 4138
M 2006-08-12 10:19:27 4138
& they use money for those that believe in money & they use patriotism for those who believe in patriotism .....etc .  so what? A politician is a whore to what will get him/her/it elected!
The problem with religion is that anyone who has sufficient charisma or influence can say anything they like about a religious belief.  There is no way to prove or disprove it.  That is the nature of faith.  This is not the case with money.  People will either buy something or they won't.  Patriotism is pretty much the same thing as religion ... just a different object of affection.  The world would be a better place sans patriotism and sans religion.  We can tackle money when we are a bit more evolved.
I guess you have missed all the hokus-pokus about the stock-market, the Fed. money policy, inflation, national debt, etc.  Indeed the nature of money now is so complex that you can get 100 economists in a room and come out with 150 opinions . Patriotism & religion are wholly different things except being together in your mind as things you intensely dislike.

Seth says
M 2006-08-12 10:19:27 4138
& they use money for those that believe in money & they use patriotism for those who believe in patriotism .....etc .  so what? A politician is a whore to what will get him/her/it elected!
The problem with religion is that anyone who has sufficient charisma or influence can say anything they like about a religious belief.  There is no way to prove or disprove it.  That is the nature of faith.  This is not the case with money.  People will either buy something or they won't.  Patriotism is pretty much the same thing as religion ... just a different object of affection.  The world would be a better place sans patriotism and sans religion.  We can tackel money when we are a bit more evolved.

Seth says
M 2006-08-12 10:34:00 4138
I guess you have missed all the hokus-pokus about the stock-market, the Fed. money policy, inflation, national debt, etc.  Indeed the nature of money now is so complex that you can get 100 economists in a room and come out with 150 opinions . Patriotism & religion are wholly different things except being together in your mind as things you intensely dislike.
"Intensly dislike" would be your descripiton, not mine.   I can tell you that my own actions are not motiviated by either dogma.  But both are part of the actual world in which i live.  And i am a man of this world.  I do not see myself standing insanely outside of it wishing it were something different. Sure people do manipulate money, but that is goverened by quite a different dynamic. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-12 10:55:12 4138
M 2006-08-12 10:34:00 4138
I guess you have missed all the hokus-pokus about the stock-market, the Fed. money policy, inflation, national debt, etc.  Indeed the nature of money now is so complex that you can get 100 economists in a room and come out with 150 opinions . Patriotism & religion are wholly different things except being together in your mind as things you intensely dislike.
"Intensly dislike" would be your descripiton, not mine.   I can tell you that my own actions are not motiviated by either dogma.  But both are part of the actual world in which i live.  And i am a man of this world.  I do not see myself standing insanely outside of it wishing it were something different. Sure people do manipulate money, but that is goverened by quite a different dynamic. 
As a matter of fact you will find bizarre beliefs everywhere like string-theory amongst mathematicians & physicists; black holes in astrophysics; & the church of liberalism amongst some voters. If you can group religion & patriotism together you can group money in there too!

Seth says
M 2006-08-12 11:11:04 4138
As a matter of fact you will find bizarre beliefs everywhere like string-theory amongst mathematicians & physicists; black holes in astrophysics; & the church of liberalism amongst some voters. If you can group religion & patriotism together you can group money in there too!
Well, ok, i get it ... if we can lump terms "string-theory" and "black holes" with bizarre beliefs like "the church of liberalism", then we certainly can lump in there money which we all know is the root of all evil.

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