The Origin of the ACLU

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source: ... ACLU Founder Roger Baldwin admitted as much, saying for the record that;

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  1. aclu
  2. communists

Comments


Mark de LA says
I wonder if Roger Baldwin is any relation to Alec Balwin (the so-called actor).


Mark de LA says
Rights exist only in the minds of people - there are no such things in nature. If you have any doubts watch Wild Kingdom & observe the animal kingdom & all those below the top of the food chain's rights to be eaten!


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-25 07:18:07 4250
Fine, but what if we did not defend our civil rights?  There are two sides to this coin.  If we always look at it from just one side we certainly will get a distorted picture of reality.  
Not to worry, that's what keeps lawyers busy. They write the laws & then extort money to defend for or against the laws they write. They will never go out of business!  When I get a I will extract my favorite scene (soliloquy) from The Devil's Advocate & punctuate this comment with it!

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-25 07:22:15 4250
M 2006-08-25 06:48:41 4250
Rights exist only in the minds of people - there are no such things in nature. 
Actually rights exist as patterns of cultural and social transactions.  That is a bit more than just in "the minds of people".  The patterns exist they are not imagined.
They exist abstractly.

Seth says
M 2006-08-25 07:40:29 4250
seth 2006-08-25 07:34:33 4250
M 2006-08-25 07:28:48 4250
seth 2006-08-25 07:22:15 4250
M 2006-08-25 06:48:41 4250
Rights exist only in the minds of people - there are no such things in nature. 
Actually rights exist as patterns of cultural and social transactions.  That is a bit more than just in "the minds of people".  The patterns exist they are not imagined.
They exist abstractly.
I don't call real processess which can be located in time and space abstract.   Is a habit abstract?
Check out the word abstract! The other words you use are also abstract: processes, time, habit - space is an abstract concept as well. You can measure an object which exists in space & time but space & time are concepts. Just because you use the word real as an adjective doesn't make it's target real. Notice the differences between those things that have number, measure & weight to tell whether something is a concept or not.
Thing to realize is that you are getting into an area where natural language vagues out and does not provide the level of resolution that is needed to discuss the topic.  Instead try a real ontology ... like Cyc or SUO. There you will find that what i have said is true.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-08-25 07:34:33 4250
M 2006-08-25 07:28:48 4250
seth 2006-08-25 07:22:15 4250
M 2006-08-25 06:48:41 4250
Rights exist only in the minds of people - there are no such things in nature. 
Actually rights exist as patterns of cultural and social transactions.  That is a bit more than just in "the minds of people".  The patterns exist they are not imagined.
They exist abstractly.
I don't call real processess which can be located in time and space abstract.   Is a habit abstract?
Check out the word abstract! The other words you use are also abstract: processes, time, habit - space is an abstract concept as well. You can measure an object which exists in space & time but space & time are concepts. Just because you use the word real as an adjective doesn't make it's target real. Notice the differences between those things that have number, measure & weight to tell whether something is a concept or not.

Seth says
M 2006-08-25 07:40:29 4250
Notice the differences between those things that have number, measure & weight to tell whether something is a concept or not.
Actually that is not the usual criteria.  The usual criteria is whether something can be located in time and space.  A social transaction can be located in time and space.  It might be a very complex set of events, but the events are not abstract. 

Mark de LA says
You might check out the terms abstract noun & concrete noun in your local grammar book for English!

Mark de LA says
Even the concept of locating something in time & space is a CONCEPT !

Mark de LA says
P.S. hint - time & space are concepts !

Seth says
M 2006-08-25 07:53:39 4250
You might check out the terms abstract noun & concrete noun in your local grammar book for English!
Like i said, natural langueage will fail you at this level of logical consistency.

Seth says
Check out the definition of "Abstract" in the IEEE SUO ontology.
source:  SUMO knowledge browser, emphasis mine
Instances of Abstract can be said to exist in the same sense as mathematical objects such as sets and relations, but they cannot exist at a particular place and time without some physical encoding or embodiment.

Mark de LA says
Your point might fail, but the point I made is obvious. A right is a human concept which does not exist outside of the mind of humans conceptualizing - no matter how many of them you get together doing it.  Now those humans can get together & write all their concepts down (like the Bill of Rights), but that is a document about human concepts. It takes a bunch of humans together agreeing to the concepts expressed on a paper (or in a computer) to make behavior civil; (behavior & civil) are also concepts. The place where the concepts come back out of the mind & into real life is where a person takes an action. The action is something that is observable in the so-called real world. 


Seth says
M 2006-08-25 08:10:40 4250
A right is a human concept which does not exist outside of the mind of humans conceptualizing - no matter how many of them you get together doing it.  Now those humans can get together & write all their concepts down (like the Bill of Rights), but that is a document about human concepts. It takes a bunch of humans together agreeing to the concepts expressed on a paper (or in a computer) to make behavior civil; (behavior & civil) are also concepts. The place where the concepts come back out of the mind & into real life is where a person takes an action. The action is something that is observable in the so-called real world. 
I have no troubles with most of that.  I am comming from the position where "the right" is the collection of observable events.  It is not what is written down about them.  It is the actual pattern of human transactions.  It is the cultural habit of behaving in a particular manner.  As such it is not Abstract.  My point is that there are politicians who would degrade that pattern of cultural behavior for whatever reason. If we want to keep doing it, we need to vigilently defend it. 

Mark de LA says
Well, the ACLU will defend "rights" above the safety of this country;  criminals & terrorists rights more than the rights of people minding their own business.


Seth says
M 2006-08-25 08:55:28 4250
Well, the ACLU will defend "rights" above the safety of this country;  criminals & terrorists rights more than the rights of people minding their own business.
Imho, there is no generalized statement that captures the essence of the predicament.  On the one hand our rights do need to be defended, on the other hand we cannot hamstring criminal prosecution and intelligence gathering ability.   We need to start looking at cases to say anything pertinent beyond that.