Tiresome

About: i am not anti-semitic, ...

  Being Anti-Semitic, thinking anti-Semitic & talking & doing anti-Semitic are different things. Seth, the majority of your posts are NOT on the side of Israel & ignore some of the major atrocities of the Islamofascists.
  Maybe you are just anti-Zionist!
Conversations flow in multiple-threads & multiple directions.  As a child I was very confused by this.  Later I learned that most people do not follow a single train of thought - sometimes no train of thought at all. Your dictatorial way of deleting other's diversion from your topics (Seth) is growing Tiresome!





Tags

  1. train of thought
  2. anti-semitic
  3. item 4334
  4. tiresome

Comments


Seth says
Seth, the majority of your posts are NOT on the side of Israel & ignore some of the major atrocities of the Islamofascists.
This is true.  But at the moment i am focusing on reasons that peace is not happening.  Most of the Western media is ignoring this other side to the issue ... probably because they are not wanting to be tagged Anti-Semantic.  This same kind of tagging is going on in US politics.  If you challenge the conduct of the Iraqi war, you will be tagged as unpatriotic.  We need to get beyond these taggings.  It is those taggings that are propoganda.  Let the facts speak for themselves.  It is true that we can document acts of terror perutrated against Israel ... it is also true that we can document acts of terror perputrated by Israel against their neighbors.  The former is no reason to ignore the latter, nor visa versa.  If we speak only of the former, then we are perverting history.  If you look at body count, even carefully taking into consideration context, i bet that many Westerners would be very surprised.  I think that is a story that needs to be carefully investigated and told.  Let the chips fall where they may.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-05 11:29:14 4335
Get over it.  If you ever hang out on working groups which are trying to actually get something accomplished, you would not fail to notice that this staying on topic is digilantly enforced. 
Yep, just about what I expected. Not much is going to get accomplished on a blog anyway.

Mark de LA says








Mark de LA says
Or maybe this is more the idea :




Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-05 11:50:58 4335
M 2006-09-05 11:37:50 4335
seth 2006-09-05 11:29:14 4335
Get over it.  If you ever hang out on working groups which are trying to actually get something accomplished, you would not fail to notice that this staying on topic is diligently enforced. 
Yep, just about what I expected. Not much is going to get accomplished on a blog anyway.
... and perhaps the tendency to meander away from the topic is one of the reasons nothing gets accomplished.
   Nope! Nothing gets done with just hot air! Opinions are like assholes ..... that's what little blogs are made of. Argumentation never made even one peace dove appear.  Your focus has been on making Israel wrong; presuming that the mainstream media would make the other side wrong. But that (making Israel wrong) is what the mainstream media does - that's their current script to make Bush wrong & try to affect the coming congressional elections.
  Now if you could figure out why You & I argue (albeit only in this blog) & how to get past impasses presented you might find out how mini-doves of peace are made. Otherwise I recommend a good characterization of Middle East Peace in 4305


Mark de LA says
Nothing wrong with extrapolating your ideas to their absurd conclusions, S. Distortion is also achieved by focusing on one side of a situation. For example one could hail the attempts to achieve peace by Hamas & Abbas' factions joining forces if both sides respect Israel's right to exist (which Hamas has been against). Otherwise it is a sign of more radical elements joining together for political reasons. One can't blame Israel for not giving tax money to a terrorist organization that doesn't recognize it's right to exist.

Seth says
Now if you could figure out why You & I argue (albeit only in this blog) & how to get past impasses presented you might find out how mini-doves of peace are made.
Well i think that we are looking at things from opposite political directions.  Which is fine ... looking at something from two different perspectives is good.  What infuriates me is that to critizize my perspective, you always seem to distort what i actually say.  We each pick and choose which facts that we include in our analysis ... that is a given .. and can only be reconciled when we have allowed all of the facts to be put into the record.  But we never actually get that far.  Usually we get hung up on your distortion of what i have actually said. Look i make enough mistakes, i make enough oversights that you don't need to manufacture ones that i do not make. 

Seth says
M 2006-09-05 14:06:39 4335
Nothing wrong with extrapolating your ideas to their absurd conclusions, S. Distortion is also achieved by focusing on one side of a situation. For example one could hail the attempts to achieve peace by Hamas & Abbas' factions joining forces if both sides respect Israel's right to exist (which Hamas has been against). Otherwise it is a sign of more radical elements joining together for political reasons. One can't blame Israel for not giving tax money to a terrorist organization that doesn't recognize it's right to exist.
Extrapolating ideas to absurd conclusions and then implying that i said those conclusions is considered intellectually dishonest.  Now if you make it clear that it is your logic that is doing the extrapoliting, then we are free to challeng your logic and extrapolation.  But when you put those extrapolations in my mouth, you are telling a lie.  I already dealt with the logistics of talking about one side at a time, you choose to ignore my reasoning there, i choose to ignore your confusion here. 

I do understand Israel's stated reasons for not giving tax money to a terrorist organization.  All i said about it was that it is a good sign that the situation might change and Hammas etc might find a way to recognize Israel.  That will go a long way twards peace. 

Mark de LA says
source: ... Extrapolating ideas to absurd conclusions and then implying that i said those conclusions is considered intellectually dishonest.  Now if you make it clear that it is your logic that is doing the extrapoliting, then we are free to challeng your logic and extrapolation.
...Never implied that you said anything that you didn't, I usually imply that your absurdities are equivalent to something absurd (strawman in your lingo) in order to draw you out. I assume you can guess that anything signed with my name in my group is my opinion/point!

Seth says
I understand argumentum ad absurdum, that is not what you are doingThere is no excuse for propping up a straw man.  Except sometimes you say something like this:  Let us prop up a straw man and see what is wrong with it.  But again that is not what you are doing.  You are straight forward talking as if i said  what you admit are absurb conclusions.  Why can you not just acknowledge that this is not a productive way to argue?  Or is this just a right-wrong game that you cannot give up? 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-05 15:09:58 4335
M 2006-09-05 14:55:08 4335
source: ... Extrapolating ideas to absurd conclusions and then implying that i said those conclusions is considered intellectually dishonest.  Now if you make it clear that it is your logic that is doing the extrapoliting, then we are free to challeng your logic and extrapolation.
...Never implied that you said anything that you didn't, I usually imply that your absurdities are equivalent to something absurd (strawman in your lingo) in order to draw you out. I assume you can guess that anything signed with my name in my group is my opinion/point!
This just wasts time because then i need to clarify and argue for or against a position to which i don't subscribe.  It is not just you who does it, nor is it just me who complains.  There is a consensus in civilized discussion that it is not a good idea.  It does nothing to get us closer to seeing things together.  It only puts us further away.
It only wastes time in your mind because it shows how absurd your positions are. Argument ad absurdum is a time honored method of debate - in your words "Get over it!". Here are some of the others.
source: The argumentum ad absurdum, or reductio ad absurdum, is itself a valid argument, based on the principle [the Law of Clavius, (-P -> P) -> P] that the introduction of the denial of the conclusion into a valid argument produces a contradiction and establishes the conclusion. This is widely used in mathematics and in natural argument.
... also from a google .


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-05 15:31:33 4335
I understand argumentum ad absurdum, that is not what you are doingThere is no excuse for propping up a straw man.  Except sometimes you say something like this:  Let us prop up a straw man and see what is wrong with it.  But again that is not what you are doing.  You are straight forward talking as if i said  what you admit are absurb conclusions.  Why can you not just acknowledge that this is not a productive way to argue?  Or is this just a right-wrong game that you cannot give up? 
Come up with some clear examples.  I don't do what you say I am doing.

Seth says
M 2006-09-05 16:06:41 4335
Come up with some clear examples.  I don't do what you say I am doing.
fair enough, next time it happens i will point it out.

Mark de LA says
I am hesitant to get involved in this shit again.  You say
source: ... I really want to be able to predict the chances of peace.
... What for? What help can I give you in this absurd quest, Don Quixote ?
I don't know whether you can call this point in time a zero point in the chicken & egg cycle of atrocities & counter-atrocities - or NOT.  The Hezbos & Hamas still owe Israel some soldiers they kidnapped to start the current wars.  There is rumor that one of them is likely to make some exchanges. Then what?  Your term oppression is right out of the party line of the Arabs & Palestinians - not a neutral term. How opressing was it for the Israelis to get the hell out of Gaza? The Jews even left behind perfectly good houses & producing horticulture farms which the Palestinians destroyed because they had been occupied by Jews.   What would you do if you had a predictor of peace - go bet in Las Vegas or something ?


Seth says
This is a situation where I actually need your help, Mark.  I really want to be able to predict the chances of peace.  If Israel relaxes its opperssion in Gaza and the West Bank, will there be a better chance of peace or not?  Can we put aside critizizm of each other long enough to see if we can arrive at a consensus between us?  I propose to collect some instances of current oppression against Palestinanens and verify that we have accurate accounts of them.  I also want to collect some instances of current acts of violence perpertrated by Palestineans against Israel.  Note that i am talking current events ... events that will be in the minds of the people of the region in the comming days.  Then make a determination whether if the one kind of events are reduced, will the other kind of events also decrease.  This is an extensional approach.  We are talking actual events not words that politicians spin. 

One problem i have is that i cannot find any current terrorists actions against Israel.  Note that i am excluding the rocket attacks from Hezbollah.  We are talking only about Gaza and the West Bank and events surrounding the Palestineans in those areas.

Seth says
M 2006-09-07 13:57:06 4335
I am hesitant to get involved in this shit again.  You say
source: ... I really want to be able to predict the chances of peace.
What help can I give you in this
Mark, i spelled out pretty specifically what help i am requesting above with a fair amount of detail.  You talk as if you did not read it.  Please read it.  We can change terms like "oppression" but one needs to have a reasonable term to with which to classify the events.  Bear in mind these events are balanced by events that we term "terrorism", so we need to choose two terms here. 
... What for?
Awareness.  I want to know.  Also i want to know if we can come to a consensus.  This should be right up your alley considering some of the grand ideas you have regarding the Unhack The Brain group.  If we cannot even accomplish this one thing, then how in hell do you propose to ever make any progress on those grand ideas. 

Bear in mind that cooperation is a two way street.  If we are never to be cooperating here, then let me know and i will cease to ask it of you.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-07 14:25:53 4335
Sorry, you are still coming from a different place [see: item 1722] that I can't participate in without being pissed-off daily. I respectively back-out of the endeavor.






Good luck! & peace!

Seth says
M 2006-09-07 14:34:54 4335
seth 2006-09-07 14:25:53 4335
Sorry, you are still coming from a different place [see: item 1722] that I can't participate in without being pissed-off daily. I respectively back-out of the endeavor. Good luck! & peace!
Fine, let it be .  This is about the third time i have asked for your cooperation.  I doubt thart i will ever ask for it again.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-07 14:37:27 4335
M 2006-09-07 14:34:54 4335
seth 2006-09-07 14:25:53 4335
Sorry, you are still coming from a different place [see: item 1722] that I can't participate in without being pissed-off daily. I respectively back-out of the endeavor. Good luck! & peace!
Fine, let it be .  This is about the third time i have asked for your cooperation.  I doubt thart i will ever ask for it again.
At this point you have just demonstrated 1722 with bells on it.  I simply don't want to piss into the wind about the Arab-Israeli conflict any more.  There is no cheese at the end of that rat labyrinth for me.  You enjoy it. Kewl. Maybe someone else will enjoy it too! There is no reason to get mad at me for being tired of the game (see the title of this item).  Now if you wanted to address 1722 as it relates to you & I with some specifics that might be more enlightening.

Seth says
M 2006-09-07 14:44:06 4335
At this point you have just demonstrated 1722 with bells on it.  I simply don't want to piss into the wind about the Arab-Israeli conflict any more.  There is no cheese at the end of that rat labyrinth for me.  You enjoy it. Kewl. Maybe someone else will enjoy it too! There is no reason to get mad at me for being tired of the game (see the title of this item).  Now if you wanted to address 1722 as it relates to you & I with some specifics that might be more enlightening.
I don't get the connection between asking for your assistance and playing a right wrong game. Sorry i don't get it.  Yes i am mad because you have declined.  Every time i ask for something you find some excuse for not cooperating. 

A study that is made by one person must needs be stamped with that person's biases.  But if we can cooperate long enough to try to get at the truth of this matter, then we will have accomplished something indeed.  That accomplishment itself proves that we are not just pissing in the wind. It joins us in a common purpose.  We agree on the rules under which the inquiry is to be condected and then we both follow those rules.  We design the rules such that they will converge on a conclusion or finding. 

Mark de LA says
Being mad at me & saying that I don't want to cooperate with you is part of the right-wrong game. You are making me wrong for not wanting to play anymore.  I even offered cooperation in other things. I have spent the last 4-6 months in this game & really don't have anything to show for it except a hair trigger on blogging and an empty, sinking feeling.  Sorry, the rest has already been said.

BTW, this is not the Mafia - I can get out of it.

Seth says
Actually if you think about it, what i am proposing is exactly the way out of that sinking feeling.  It is a method to get rid of it.  Look if i say something, then you say something, that is so arbrtrary and can go on forever and, in fact, is just pissing in the wind.  But if we use reality to be the determiner, where reality is actual events that can be verified, and then come to a consensus of what is the truth of a complex matter, then we will have accomplished something.  What makes it possible is that reality decides the issue, not us. And we design the rules and goals of the inquiry just so that that will happen.  If we don't converge as expected that it is up to us to fix the rules or goals.  It is that shared goal that we have been missing.  But it is that very shared goal that you are rejecting. 

Please give it some thought.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-07 15:18:32 4335
Actually if you think about it, what i am proposing is exactly the way out of that sinking feeling.  It is a method to get rid of it.  Look if i say something, then you say something, that is so arbrtrary and can go on forever and, in fact, is just pissing in the wind.  But if we use reality to be the determiner, where reality is actual events that can be verified, and then come to a consensus of what is the truth of a complex matter, then we will have accomplished something.  What makes it possible is that reality decides the issue, not us. And we design the rules and goals of the inquiry just so that that will happen.  If we don't converge as expected that it is up to us to fix the rules or goals.  It is that shared goal that we have been missing.  But it is that very shared goal that you are rejecting. 

Please give it some thought.
So what is your thesis up to this point ?

Seth says
choy 2006-09-08 07:58:52 4335
So what is your thesis up to this point ?
It's not a thesis, it is a proposal to do an inquiry with an agreed upon adgenda and agreeded upon set of rules of inquiry.  I briefly scoped it by saying this ...
I propose to collect some instances of current oppression against Palestinanens and verify that we have accurate accounts of them.  I also want to collect some instances of current acts of violence perpertrated by Palestineans against Israel.  Note that i am talking current events ... events that will be in the minds of the people of the region in the comming days.  Then make a determination whether if the one kind of events are reduced, will the other kind of events also decrease.  This is an extensional approach.  We are talking actual events not words that politicians spin. 
If you agree to work on this with me, then we might first agree on the adgenda:
  1. agree on a proposition that frames the inquiry - this is a sentence that is either true or false depending on the results of the inquiry.  Something like: If Israel decreases oppressive actions against peoples of the West Bank and Gaza, then terrorist actions by those peoples against residents of Israel will also decrease.
  2. agree on a system of reporting current incidents of oppression and terror.
  3. collect as many incidents as we can.
  4. figure out how we can extrapolate to determine the veracity of the framing proposition.

Mark de LA says
So you have no thesis at all & this is a mindless exercise ?  in frustration ? 


Seth says
choy 2006-09-08 08:43:08 4335
So you have no thesis at all [uncoperative text snipped]
You could look at it this way: "If Israel decreases oppressive actions against peoples of the West Bank and Gaza, then terrorist actions by those peoples against residents of Israel will also decrease." is the thesis sentence to be tested.  Sorry, perhaps i was misinterperting your use of the word "thesis".

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-08 09:27:15 4335
choy 2006-09-08 08:43:08 4335
[uncoperative text snipped]
This is why I will not piss into the wind on this subject.

Seth says
choy 2006-09-08 09:38:41 4335
seth 2006-09-08 09:27:15 4335
choy 2006-09-08 08:43:08 4335
[uncoperative text snipped]
This is why I will not piss into the wind on this subject.
.. why is that?  Because you cannot refrain from putting in uncooperative text, or that i cannot refrain from snipping it?  Or did you think that saying "this is a mindless exercise ?  in frustration ?" informed me or advanced our earstwhile common goal ?

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-08 09:45:33 4335
.. why is that?  Because you cannot refrain from putting in uncooperative text, or that i cannot refrain from snipping it?  Or did you think that saying "this is a mindless exercise ?  in frustration ?" informed me or advanced our earstwhile common goal ?
For one, if you are trying to persuade me to cooperate in an adventure which I have already said I am tired of (see title way back up there at the top) then pissing me off (by deleting my comments in an authoritarian way & with a tone that reeks of 1722) is counter-productive & not likely to work. The mindless exercise & comment was designed to draw out your purpose which you finally cut loose above somewhere close.

I am working on a different proposal in a different item at this moment.

Seth says
Well i think what you are tired of is making snide comments to me for which you get back snide comments to yourself.  Of course when you think of the comments you, perhaps, are not aware that they will sound snide to me.  But i assure you that they do snound snide and i do not enjoy them and they do not inform and are only a source of pain for me.  Do you think it is possible that you could determine in advance of publishing them what effect they will have?  Strange how this fight here between you and i has parallels in my thesis sentence. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-08 10:23:44 4335
Well i think what you are tired of is making snide comments to me for which you get back snide comments to yourself.  Of course when you think of the comments you, perhaps, are not aware that they will sound snide to me.  But i assure you that they do snound snide and i do not enjoy them and they do not inform and are only a source of pain for me.  Do you think it is possible that you could determine in advance of publishing them what effect they will have?  Strange how this fight here between you and i has parallels in my thesis sentence. 
You are not a very good mind reader. There is no parallel in your thesis. I am NOT A TERRORIST & NOT OPPRESSING ANYONE nor do I suspect are you!

Seth says
choy 2006-09-08 10:32:48 4335
You are not a very good mind reader. There is no parallel in your thesis. I am NOT A TERRORIST & NOT OPPRESSING ANYONE nor do I suspect are you!
Do actually you think that was the the parallel to which i refered?  

I'll write two sentences below:
  1. If Israel decreases oppressive actions against peoples of the West Bank and Gaza, then terrorist actions by those peoples against residents of Israel will also decrease.
  2. If Mark decreases snide remarks against Seth, then Seth's snide actions against Mark will also decrease.
Can you now see the parallel to which i refered?

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-08 11:01:18 4335
choy 2006-09-08 10:32:48 4335
You are not a very good mind reader. There is no parallel in your thesis. I am NOT A TERRORIST & NOT OPPRESSING ANYONE nor do I suspect are you!
Do actually you think that was the the parallel to which i refered?  

I'll write two sentences below:
  1. If Israel decreases oppressive actions against peoples of the West Bank and Gaza, then terrorist actions by those peoples against residents of Israel will also decrease.
  2. If Mark decreases snide remarks against Seth, then Seth's snide actions against Mark will also decrease.
Can you now see the parallel to which i refered?
Thanks for the clarity.  NOW DO YOU SEE THAT snide is NOT equal terrorism & oppression?

Seth says
M 2006-09-08 11:11:00 4335
Thanks for the clarity. 
[next loop snipped]
Your welcome.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-08 11:27:59 4335
M 2006-09-08 11:11:00 4335
Thanks for the clarity. 
[next loop snipped]
Your welcome.
[fu[snip]k y[snip]u]

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