Situation Called Dire in West Iraq


The next time you hear Bush say ...
source: whitehouse.gov
The Iraqi People Have Reclaimed Their Sovereignty, Voted In Free Elections, Drafted And Approved A Democratic Constitution, And Established A Constitutional Democracy.  At every step along the way, our enemies have failed to break the Iraqi people's courage or stop the rise of Iraqi democracy.
  ... don't believe it.  Instead read what his intelligence officers are telling him  ...
"We haven't been defeated militarily but we have been defeated politically -- and that's where wars are won and lost."
This is a very gloomy assessment and one that does not bode well for "stay the course".  You should read the whole article carefully.  I wonder what Tony Snow will say about it ?

Tags

  1. iraq
  2. war
  3. bush lied
  4. leaks
  5. item 4388

Comments


Mark de LA says
BTW, what in the part of the whitehouse.gov quote is untrue ?  What in the Washingtonpost article contradicted any of your quote. Please be specific !


Seth says
M 2006-09-11 10:08:09 4388
M 2006-09-11 10:04:57 4388
SOS - consider the source - secret classified documents which nobody is able to verify ! The US should prosecute the editors & the journalist Ricks for violations of various espionage acts & classified documents acts.
I know it's painful for you and your buddies when the truth leaks out.  You always respond in the same predictable way.  But i'm sorry, it is the job of journalists to scrutinize what goes on in government.  Finding and reporting that information is not a crime, rather it is part of the practicing democracy.  It is one of the hallmarks of a totalirian regime to restrin the press in the way you are suggesting.  I am glad when the former process wins out against the latter process.

Mark de LA says
M 2006-09-11 10:04:57 4388
SOS - consider the source - secret classified documents which nobody is able to verify ! The US should prosecute the editors & the journalist Ricks for violations of various espionage acts & classified documents acts.
Otherwise this is the SOS for Seth & the rest of the left-wing pre-election talking points & their scripts.
Doom & Gloom in Iraq as far as the eye can see !
source: ...
Not everyone interviewed about the report agrees with its glum findings. The Defense Department official, who worked in Iraq earlier this year, said his sense is that Anbar province is going to be troubled as long as U.S. troops are in Iraq. "Lawlessness is a way of life there," he said. As for the report, he said, "It's one conclusion about one area. The conclusion on al Anbar doesn't translate into a perspective on the entire country."
...
source: Like others interviewed about the report, he spoke on the condition that he not be identified by name because of the document's sensitivity
... Naturally !

Mark de LA says
I guess seth is in favor of newspapers breaking the laws of Congress & the Constitution as long as it serves their left-wing agenda.  It's OK to break laws ?


Seth says
M 2006-09-11 10:11:20 4388
BTW, what in the part of the whitehouse.gov quote is untrue ?  What in the Washingtonpost article contradicted any of your quote. Please be specific !
Well for one thing, this ...
Devlin reports that there are no functioning Iraqi government institutions in Anbar, leaving a vacuum that has been filled by the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq, which has become the province's most significant political force, said the Army officer, who has read the report. Another person familiar with the report said it describes Anbar as beyond repair; a third said it concludes that the United States has lost in Anbar.
... contradicts this
At every step along the way, our enemies have failed to break the Iraqi people's courage or stop the rise of Iraqi democracy.


Mark de LA says
So using your flawed logic if someone holds up a store in your neighborhood then we can say that Renton is lawless! What does your quote have to do with the Iraqui people's courage? How does that stop the rise of Iraqi democracy if in some province there is some alleged lawlessness?

Mark de LA says
I suppose you would have said during the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles that California was Lawless, eh ? Democracy in California or maybe the USA failed ?

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 10:55:13 4388
I guess seth is in favor of newspapers breaking the laws of Congress & the Constitution as long as it serves their left-wing agenda.  It's OK to break laws ?
You should read and repond to what i said above about the functioning of democracy.  Also there is no evidance that any laws have been broken ... certainly not by the journalists.  That is just your conjecture. You should code it as such.

And, yes, it is ok to break laws ... it is necessary to make democracy work ... read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau.  Government will attempt to make everything that embarassess them or detracts from their adgenda secret.  It is the duty of the press to keep that from happening.  Get over it!

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 11:05:14 4388
I suppose you would have said during the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles that California was Lawless, eh ? Democracy in California or maybe the USA failed ?
Keep your eye on the ball ... your rambeling.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 11:05:52 4388
M 2006-09-11 10:55:13 4388
I guess seth is in favor of newspapers breaking the laws of Congress & the Constitution as long as it serves their left-wing agenda.  It's OK to break laws ?
You should read and repond to what i said above about the functioning of democracy.  Also there is no evidance that any laws have been broken ... certainly not by the journalists.  That is just your conjecture. You should code it as such.

And, yes, it is ok to break laws ... it is necessary to make democracy work ... read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau.  Government will attempt to make everything that embarassess them or detracts from their adgenda secret.  It is the duty of the press to keep that from happening.  Get over it!
Moral Relativism again & again & again! 

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 10:59:07 4388
So using your flawed logic if someone holds up a store in your neighborhood then we can say that Renton is lawless! What does your quote have to do with the Iraqui people's courage? How does that stop the rise of Iraqi democracy if in some province there is some alleged lawlessness?
Your sounding like a lwyer  here.  Next time the administration talks about its success in Iraq go back and read the report.  That is the essence of what my item above said.  The administration is spinning what is happening in Iraq implying that democracy is working.  But the intelligence analysis comming from the field is telling a different story.

I hope this report does leak out.  To leak it would be an act of courage. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 11:07:14 4388
M 2006-09-11 11:05:14 4388
I suppose you would have said during the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles that California was Lawless, eh ? Democracy in California or maybe the USA failed ?
Keep your eye on the ball ... your rambeling.
Actually not rambeling - I took the context and applied it to something at home that you might actually understand!!  Too bad it went Whooosh - right over your head

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 11:18:01 4388
seth 2006-09-11 11:05:52 4388
M 2006-09-11 10:55:13 4388
I guess seth is in favor of newspapers breaking the laws of Congress & the Constitution as long as it serves their left-wing agenda.  It's OK to break laws ?
You should read and repond to what i said above about the functioning of democracy.  Also there is no evidance that any laws have been broken ... certainly not by the journalists.  That is just your conjecture. You should code it as such.

And, yes, it is ok to break laws ... it is necessary to make democracy work ... read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau.  Government will attempt to make everything that embarassess them or detracts from their adgenda secret.  It is the duty of the press to keep that from happening.  Get over it!
Moral Relativism again & again & again! 
really ?  So are you saying that one should always follow the law regardless of the consequences?  Err ... just in case you didnt realize it, that is almost verbatem the definition of fundamentalism.   Are you a fundamentalist?

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 11:19:15 4388
I hope this report does leak out.  To leak it would be an act of courage. 
Well at this point Seth is advocating breaking a law. My counter-hope is that someone in the Justice department prosecutes one of these self-righteous journalists and throws them in jail for the next 20 years or so.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 11:22:45 4388
really ?  So are you saying that one should always follow the law regardless of the consequences?  Err ... just in case you didnt realize it, that is almost verbatem the definition of fundamentalism.   Are you a fundamentalist?
Wow, it's hard to begin with this assertion there are so many things wrong with it. In things like the national security & classified information I advise obeying the law.  Otherwise, suffer the consequences & there should be consequences !
    Here is the definition of fundamentalism - read it and weep! It doesn't say anything about following laws regardless of the consequences or visa versa.
    I am not a fundamentalist at all.  My latest thoughts about the subject of religion are to be found in 4383 - written previous to this mess.

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 11:22:56 4388
seth 2006-09-11 11:19:15 4388
I hope this report does leak out.  To leak it would be an act of courage. 
Well at this point Seth is advocating breaking a law. My counter-hope is that someone in the Justice department prosecutes one of these self-righteous journalists and throws them in jail for the next 20 years or so.
Point of information.  Wouldn't it be the person in the pentagon who leaked the information be the one committing the crime?  Is it a crime to publish leaked classified information?  If so, what is the statute ?

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 11:31:06 4388
    Here is the definition of fundamentalism - read it and weep! It doesn't say anything about following laws regardless of the consequences or visa versa.
Well following scriptures like the Koran and the Christian Bible literally (which i translated to always "following the law" ) is very definitely part of fundamentalism.  I got this from a recent book on fundamentalism in general (sorry amazon is down now and i can't give exact reference) and also from The Great Theft which is about Islamic fundamentalism.  Going out on the web with a preconcieved idea and using your search results to prove your point is not a good way to read for the truth.

Mark de LA says
M 2006-09-11 11:37:05 4388
both
Definition of Espionage in Wikipedia is here.  If you want text of the laws do your own research.

Mark de LA says
So you are apparently asking if I am a fundamentalist in the way you think a fundamentalist behaves & thinks. My answer stands with 4383.

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 12:07:52 4388
So you are apparently asking if I am a fundamentalist in the way you think a fundamentalist behaves & thinks. My answer stands with 4383.
Fine, then answer me this.  Do you believe that people in government should alway follow the law and never leak classified information ... even though that information is of vital importance to an informed citizenry?   Is there never a situation in which that information should be leaked?  Take for example the Pentagon Papers.  Or if you can remember an example which embarassed a democratic president, take that as an example.  If you are saying yes, then you are saying that the letter of the law always trumps what a person believes is the best course of events. 

And, btw, if you really are saying that the law should always trump, then you have the wrong president in office because he is paving new roads in breaking Congress's laws.

Mark de LA says
I would not use Daniel Ellsberg as an example of anyone moral in the least.  When it first came out I had hoped he would be caught & prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  If it is OK for anyone who has classified information & is disaffected with the government or his superiors or some decision someone made to leak classified information (you should really look up what that means) then it will not be long before the good old USA isn't.  To an ex-military person classified information is serious shit!  It means stuff that if the enemy knew would seriously, gravely or other wise affect the safety & security of the country or it's people & could do serious harm or grave harm.  To you it seems as it is a game of politics or Bush-bashing.  Broadcasting it for anyone of the enemy to just pick out of the papers or the internet seems even more serious - it's faster than the old cloak & dagger movies portray things. 

The net of it is that there are other legal ways to deal with this stuff.  I have yet to hear of anything released to the mainstream media that could not have been handled in investigations in Congress or some other body.
Someone who leaks is doing it for political gain or smear & is running a script that is against the government & should be put in jail (both the leaker & the leakee).





Seth says
Fine, you could have chosen your own example, but it is clear to me that you are holding to the letter of the law when it comes to leaks of classified information and not compensating for conscience.  It will be interesting to see if when a democratic administration gets in power and there are leaks which embarass it, you will be singing the same tune. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 12:51:44 4388
Fine, you could have chosen your own example, but it is clear to me that you are holding to the letter of the law when it comes to leaks of classified information and not compensating for conscience.  It will be interesting to see if when a democratic administration gets in power and there are leaks which embarass it, you will be singing the same tune. 

I have always held this point of view as long as I remember thinking of it.  The letter of the law is what the law is all about.  The other dimension is for judges & juries which are still part of that branch of government.  It seems that the journalism & main-stream media thinks that the so-called Fourth Estate is a fourth branch of government that can do what it wants & is immune from the judicial, legislative & executive branches.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 13:33:29 4388
Well Amazon came back up after i rebooted ... strange how my computer can affect amazon.com like that

Anyway i found the book on fundamentalism that tells of its foundations in literalism.  I think it was Fundamentalism: The Search For Meaning by Malise Ruthven (Hardcover - Jul 1, 2004).  You might start on Chapter 3:  "The Snares of Literalism".  It turns out that interperting scriptures literally is a bad idea.  And it is even worse when those in power are doing the interperting.  They will tell you, hey it is written down right here and this is what it means. 

Now i understand the military and political reasons for secrecy and i totaly agree with them.  Your implication that i do not is disingenuous.  What i am saying is that there are situations which trump the laws on secrecy.  And any government which classifies information simply because it is embarassing, or because it casts doubt on its own adgenda, is a government which is abusing the law and by that very abuse is weaking that law.  It is the job of journalists (and whistle blowers) to uncover that information and bring it to the attention of the citizenry.  That is one of the checks and balances in a free society.  If you don't like the way things work here, there are plenty of totaliarian regimes which agressively persecuite people who disclose information ... may i suggest Iran and North Korea ... your plane tickets are waiting at the airport.
Well, the laws also protect the snide, ad hominem & stupid as well.  You should hope that they are obeyed.  Like I said there are many laws & congress that can inquire into these other avenues within the law that protect the citizenry from an opressive government.  The good old USA has the best there is in this department - sometimes to the detriment of being able to act.

Seth says
Well Amazon came back up after i rebooted ... strange how my computer can affect amazon.com like that

Anyway i found the book on fundamentalism that tells of its foundations in literalism.  I think it was Fundamentalism: The Search For Meaning by Malise Ruthven (Hardcover - Jul 1, 2004).  You might start on Chapter 3:  "The Snares of Literalism".  It turns out that interperting scriptures literally is a bad idea.  And it is even worse when those in power are doing the interperting.  They will tell you, hey it is written down right here and this is what it means. 

Now i understand the military and political reasons for secrecy and i totaly agree with them.  Your implication that i do not is disingenuous.  What i am saying is that there are situations which trump the laws on secrecy.  And any government which classifies information simply because it is embarassing, or because it casts doubt on its own adgenda, is a government which is abusing the law and by that very abuse is weaking that law.  It is the job of journalists (and whistle blowers) to uncover that information and bring it to the attention of the citizenry.  That is one of the checks and balances in a free society.  If you don't like the way things work here, there are plenty of totaliarian regimes which agressively persecuite people who disclose information ... may i suggest Iran and North Korea ... your plane tickets are waiting at the airport.

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 13:38:12 4388
It seems that the journalism & main-stream media thinks that the so-called Fourth Estate is a fourth branch of government that can do what it wants & is immune from the judicial, legislative & executive branches.
The "Fourth Estate" is an essential part of a free society.  It is a check on the powers of government.  Perhaps you could address that aspect of this matter rather than changing the topic.

You implication that the media thinks it "can do what it wants & is immune from the judicial, legislative & executive branches" is a straw man that you propped up to make your sentence sound cute and is without validity.

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 13:38:12 4388
The letter of the law is what the law is all about. 
Humans are needed to interpret the letters. People in power will interpret the letters to further their own adgendas.  An authorian (sometimes called a fundamentalist) will say something like "The letter of the law is what the law is all about" to confuse people into thinking that they have not interperted the letters according to their own adgenda.  That is exactly what your famous Islamofacists have been doing.  That is the problem which i am attempting to bring to your attention.

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 13:42:40 4388
Like I said there are many laws & congress that can inquire into these other avenues within the law that protect the citizenry from an opressive government. 
Those avenues are not always available.  Not to mention that journalists make their living by publishing direct to the public, for them to be effective and motivated they need that ability. 

Mark de LA says
Sticks & stones - .... Dude - calling something a straw man is pure script.  Look in the constitution, the media is NOT part of the government - hence it is not immune from the rest.  The only place it is mentioned is in the first ammendment.  Get your head straight or go back & take a civics class.
seth 2006-09-11 13:46:06 4388
M 2006-09-11 13:38:12 4388
It seems that the journalism & main-stream media thinks that the so-called Fourth Estate is a fourth branch of government that can do what it wants & is immune from the judicial, legislative & executive branches.
The "Fourth Estate" is an essential part of a free society.  It is a check on the powers of government.  Perhaps you could address that aspect of this matter rather than changing the topic.

You implication that the media thinks it "can do what it wants & is immune from the judicial, legislative & executive branches" is a straw man that you propped up to make your sentence sound cute and is without validity.


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-09-11 14:12:42 4388
M 2006-09-11 13:38:12 4388
The letter of the law is what the law is all about. 
Humans are needed to interpret the letters. People in power will interpret the letters to further their own adgendas.  An authorian (sometimes called a fundamentalist) will say something like "The letter of the law is what the law is all about" to confuse people into thinking that they have not interperted the letters according to their own adgenda.  That is exactly what your famous Islamofacists have been doing.  That is the problem which i am attempting to bring to your attention.
You missed the part where I mentioned judges & juries way back there - please read it again:
source: ... I have always held this point of view as long as I remember thinking of it.  The letter of the law is what the law is all about.  The other dimension is for judges & juries which are still part of that branch of government.
...Islamofacism is totalitarian... the judges, juries, elections, government is all one - not even the 4th estate is going to disagree for FEAR of being punished.


Seth says
M 2006-09-11 14:28:17 4388
Sticks & stones - .... Dude - calling something a straw man is pure script.  Look in the constitution, the media is NOT part of the government - hence it is not immune from the rest.  The only place it is mentioned is in the first ammendment.  
... nor did i say that it was part of the government.  You persist with your straw man.  I did say that it is part of a free society ... an essential part of a free society.  Do you deny that?  Would you sque the prosecution of secrecy laws so that they fear to do their job?  How would you change the status quo?

Seth says
M 2006-09-11 14:33:49 4388
seth 2006-09-11 14:12:42 4388
M 2006-09-11 13:38:12 4388
The letter of the law is what the law is all about. 
Humans are needed to interpret the letters. People in power will interpret the letters to further their own adgendas.  An authorian (sometimes called a fundamentalist) will say something like "The letter of the law is what the law is all about" to confuse people into thinking that they have not interperted the letters according to their own adgenda.  That is exactly what your famous Islamofacists have been doing.  That is the problem which i am attempting to bring to your attention.
You missed the part ...
I did't really miss it, i drected my comments directly against that which i quoted above.  This gave me an excuse to explain why i brought up fundamentalism.  If you want to understand what i am saying here, just interpert you words i quoted and what i said about them. A discussion like this gets into playing the right-wrong game if people refuse to try to see  the meaning of what the other is saying.  Apart from anything else, understanding the nature of fundamentalism in todays political drama is important.  It is not just limited to Islamofacists.  It is becomming more and more prevalent in the US political scene.  Unfortunately most of what you are saying is pissing in that streme (sorry for the graphic but it is the best way to express it).  If you would address that directly, then perhaps we could make some progress.  Yes, it is a bit out of context to the flow of dialogue on this item.  But it is just as important and something that should be addressed objectively. 

Seth says
 
source: persian journal
"Iran's conservative press watchdog on Monday shut down leading moderate broadsheet Shargh", Iranian state television said.  "Shargh was banned and referred to the court considering its frequent violations [... for...] revealing information in defiance of the Supreme National Security Council"
... bad press, bad press, don't reveal information against the law! 

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