The New York Times Misrepresents The Pope's Words

About: Pope Assails Secularism, Adding Note on Jihad - New York Times

The New York Times reports that ...

NYT By IAN FISHER Published: September 13, 2006

REGENSBURG, Germany, Sept. 12 " Pope Benedict XVI weighed in Tuesday on the delicate issue of rapport between Islam and the West: He said that violence, embodied in the Muslim idea of jihad, or holy war, is contrary to reason and God

Comments

Mark de LA says

From Foxnews same story.

Doing what they do best
Looking outraged & ugly
for the cameras!

Mark de LA says

It is a dry & intellectual argument. I think this is a part some do not like:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

...which has been taken out of quotes.

Here is the CNN version. It will be remarkable if the "infallible" Pope apologizes to the Muslim World. It will be even more remarkable if some of the Ayatollahs apologize to the Christian World for what they have wrought.

Mark de LA says
I'll bet that this is the beginning of a news hurricane of political correctness that will side with the Muslims demanding an apology - everyone knowing that it is open season in the media against Catholics & Christians.

Seth says
If the NYT had read the entire lecture carefully they would have come away with a different message than the one they claimed was there. In fact it should be scientists rioting in the streets not Muslims. The Pope's message puts the reason of faith above a narrow minded reason of science. And if you think about it, that is the only place such a reason works. At the end of the lecture the Pope puts his quot in a context which should have made Muslims proud. The Persian Muslim answered the afeared question of the infidel emperor with the following, "Not to act reasonably is contrary to the nature of God".

Seth says

M 2006-09-15 09:41:09 4421

His subject was interesting - his discourse was not IMHO.

It is hard for me to separate the two ... kind of because the medium is the message ... or maybe more accurately, the medium cannot be separated from the message. This is what you get from an intellectual theologian. There are a lot of intellectual Muslim theologians too. Perhaps what the Pope really wanted was a dialogue with them. Too bad that the anti-intellectual, anti-reason Muslims are the ones responding to his message. I will bet that he is having one of those "oh shit" moments. But who knows, he is an intelligent man. Me thinks that he could have predicted this.

Seth says

M 2006-09-15 09:26:45 4421

While I read your entire quoted lecture, I found it snoring & hard to follow where the Pope was going. Of course the media publishes the most incendiary part which was from a quote ~ 615 years ago. I suspect that most of the Muslim World won't understand the entire lecture. It was nice of the media to distill it down to just that incendiary quote - don't you think ?

No i do not ! In fact that is the real story here. The media has twisted the Pope's message and created this tempest in a teapot. And, btw, i did find the Pope's lecture interesting.

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-09-15 09:56:53 4421

M 2006-09-15 09:52:18 4421

If he apologizes doesn't he destroy his infallibility ?

I think he already has apologized (but i am not sure). I believe i saw where the vatican said that the Pope did not intend to offend Muslims or interpert Islam.

I am unaware of any doctrine of Papal infalibility.

Well there is a nice article in the Wikipedia on the subject. But, in the context of the lecture I don't think it applies according to the Wikipedia.

Seth says
Here is a even handed reporting of the situation as it is seen today. Whoops, a pontiff The Pope is innocent of charges of stirring up hatred against Islam. What i would like to see, and if i had enough time i would go looking for it, would be the original story in the press which the Muslims read which got them offended. Was it the NYT article or not? Like i said above, the real story here is not what the Pope said, or even the reactions by the Muslims. The real story here is why the Times twisted the Pope's words to predictably enflame the Muslim world.

Mark de LA says
The blogosphere is even worse. The blogosphere hypes - is not the originator of the news. Check back on 4413 , 4407 & 4396 - mostly the last one.

Seth says
There are other reports of a Papal mistrust of Islam dating back to 2005 surfacing now ... for example: Pope wont call Islam religion of peace . Read it yourself and form your own opinion of their accuracy. Of interest to me is this alleged quote ...

source: WorldNet daily Posted: January 24, 2006
Describing Benedict's response, Fessio said: "And immediately, the Holy Father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said well, there's a fundamental problem with that, because, he said, in the Islamic tradition God has given his word to Muhammad, but it's an eternal word. It's not Muhammad's word."

In contrast, the pope said, according to Fessio, there's "an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations."

Personally me thinks the Holy Father has squed the emphasis of his thinking wrongly here. It is only militant puritanical Muslims who interpert their scriptures as justifying preemptive violence. Moderate Muslims always interpert the same scriptures only as justifying peace. Perhaps Benedict needs to do more reading. But i am still skeptical of the WorldNet daily's coverage here. Perhaps this Pope himself will hasten to clarify his position.

Seth says

M 2006-09-15 12:24:55 4421

The question in my mind is why are surprised about the New York Times? They have an agenda & a script. They like bad news as whatever it is makes the world look bad & most of the time it reflects against the current administration. In this case Bush is a Christian - draw your own conclusions.

Well it's not just the Times, foxnews and many other are all over this now. Of course now that it is a story every media source has more goodies to talk about. I think the only script being followed is to crank up people's interest in the news that they report. But when it comes to cranking up violence to sell newspapers, that is a nasty scandel that should be reported. I doubt that the Mainstream media will pick this up. Do you think that the blogosphere will ?

Seth says

M 2006-09-15 11:21:40 4421

seth 2006-09-15 11:14:04 4421

M 2006-09-15 06:32:29 4421

From Foxnews same story.

Doing what they do best
Looking outraged & ugly
for the cameras!

Militant Muslims getting ourraged in hardly news today.

Yep - except that every time the media whips up another opportunity it prints these kinds of pictures! Frankly, I'm pretty sick of seeing them on the front pages - aren't you?

The question in my mind is whether the pictures are an accurate portrail the context of what actually happened or not. Remember the time when the reporter posed you guys on the freeway construction site in the rain. I am just as suspicious of the media coverage of the Muslims reaction as i am of the media coverage of the Pope's message. I suppose it is not even news that the media cranks up wars to sell papers and increase ratings. But i would like to see that aspect of this get better coverage ... hense my item.

Seth says

source: Vatican urges dialogue with Islam
The Vatican's newly appointed foreign minister, Monsignor Dominique Mamberti, said that when he takes over his duties in a few weeks dialogue with Muslims will be a top priority .

Me thinks it would be prudent to give this a bit more priority.

Mark de LA says
Coming from a Christian point of View I would not call Islam a religion of peace either. Jesus Christ didn't go around conquering people like Mohammed did! Mohammed was a warrior. JC taught the golden rule. The Jews taught the 10 commandments. Did Mohammed ? What in the hell is a "holy war", or a jihad ? That's not part of the Judeo-Christian religion. It is in Islam. There is a PC attempt these days not to offend & to whitewash the answers to these questions.
I'm sorry if this offends you or is PC, but once in a while it is necessary to look at it & bring it up.

Seth says

M 2006-09-15 16:12:43 4421

Coming from a Christian point of View I would not call Islam a religion of peace either. Jesus Christ didn't go around conquering people like Mohammed did! Mohammed was a warrior. JC taught the golden rule. The Jews taught the 10 commandments. Did Mohammed ? What in the hell is a "holy war", or a jihad ? That's not part of the Judeo-Christian religion. It is in Islam. There is a PC attempt these days not to offend & to whitewash the answers to these questions.
I'm sorry if this offends you or is PC, but once in a while it is necessary to look at it & bring it up.

Well i certainly hear what you are saying. There are a lot of others who are saying the same thing. However from where i stand a religion is what you make it. It is not something that is cast in scriptual stone. In fact that very concept of scriptual stone is the basis of fundamentalism. The Pope implied that Islam was cast in stone by saying (if in fact he did say that in context): "there's a fundamental problem, because, in the Islamic tradition God has given his word to Muhammad, but it's an eternal word. It's not Muhammad's word". Yet millions of Muslims interpert their religion as perscribing peaceful actions and that jihad is spiritual struggle of soul and not an excuse to pick fights with their neighbors. So me thinks that both you and the Pope have your emphasis squed in favor of some zero sum game rather than looking to the win win way out of the dilema.

Mark de LA says

I'm coming from the Wikipedia description of the life of Mohammed & Islam. I don't take the bible literally - mostly initiates wrote the gospels. Anthroposophy says that Christianity was once a religion & is now greater than all religions. I said something similar to this in 4383 - getting rid of the religious domain. Where religion teaches of Love then there is nothing to worry about. I haven't heard much of that from Islam lately. Maybe you can tell me where love is in the Islamic faith.

Mark de LA says

M 2006-09-15 21:49:34 4421

Here is yet another story. Angry muslims burn pope in effigy. I wonder what would happen if angry Christians burned an effigy of Mohammed for the crowd ?

Mark de LA says
So we should just take the terrorism as an annoyance ? Maybe get "lucky"?
I do get your "point" from the analogy. On the other hand, it is too easy to show how far off it is when applied to a religion or movements of terrorists. I stick with my 4383 as my criteria about the validity of a religion. That goes for the Christian pulpits & Catholic churches inside the good old USA as well as Christians (Protestants vs Catholics) in Ireland or pagan tribes in Africa & the various sects of Islam in the Middle East, Turkey, India & Indonesia &, of course, Judaism.
You seem so open minded that you will read the Great Theft, & argue from it's point of view, but will you read a book like this one for a different perspective ?

Namaste

Seth says
Mark, things are not always black and white. The question of whether Islam is "a religion of peace" does not have a binary answer. My point here is that you can choose to dwell on and emphasize those aspects of Islam which say that it is a peaceful religion and a religion which prescribes loving your fellow man. Or we can choose to focus on other aspects. The Pope has that same choice. Which choice you make and act upon determines the effect you will have on the rest of the world should you have any effect at all. Don't forget we create facts on the ground by the actions we take ... we create and destroy truths. The power of our beliefs is great.

Let me pose for you a story. Suppose you go out on a date. Your companion has many qualities ... some good ... some so good that you almost love her. Yet at the same time she has some annoying qualities ... say her nose is a bit angular ... at first glance it is quite annoying to look at. Assume also that you wish to have a good time on your date. Now what are you going to do? Are you going to mention or make quips about her nose? .... err ... not if you intend to get lucky!

The same kind of thinking can be applied by Western thinkers (for example you and the Pope) about what you choose to say about Islam. Things in this world are what we make them to be.

Assalaamu

Mark de LA says

Well, I don't know any place in the Middle East where we could hold this kind of discussion in the open, do you ? There is a clue in there somewhere! I did not suggest that religion was a movement of terrorists. The "or" was in there on purpuse!
IMHO I don't need a crowd of people or a church or anything else to practice & be a Christian. All I need is the Golden Rule. I don't get insulted if someone isn't a Christian or puts down Christians (It may hurt a little inside, but that is minor - I don't have to accept such "gifts" from others). I certainly am not going to kill someone else for their beliefs - however misguided!

Shalom

Seth says

M 2006-09-16 07:55:12 4421

I do get your "point" from the analogy. On the other hand, it is too easy to show how far off it is when applied to a religion or movements of terrorists.

Well thanks for seeing my point. A religion is a group, terrorists is some other kind of group. How many times have you heard a Muslim declare that terrorists are not correctly following the teachings of Muhammad? Do you believe them? So that these two groups ... Muslims and terrorists ... are not the same group. Back to my analogy, taking a terrorists on a date would be like taking a ugly whore in whom you could see almost no reedeming virtures. Conjoinging the terms "a religion" and "movements of terrorists" in the same sentence as you have done above is not an application of my analogy.

I stick with my 4383 as my criteria about the validity of a religion. That goes for the Christian pulpits & Catholic churches inside the good old USA as well as Christians (Protestants vs Catholics) in Ireland or pagan tribes in Africa & the various sects of Islam in the Middle East, Turkey, India & Indonesia &, of course, Judaism.
You seem so open minded that you will read the Great Theft, & argue from it's point of view, but will you read a book like this one for a different perspective ?

Namaste

Would you have Muslims hold up the parts of Christianity that you believe are not characteristic of that religion, asserting: this stuff is what Christianity is all about? Is that not what you are doing to Islam ? Are you following 4299 ?
Namaste

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-09-16 12:45:09 4421

This may or may not shed some light on Pope Benedict's recent behavior ...

source: Pope remarks reveal harder stance
Benedict XVI undoubtedly wants to achieve better relations with Islam, but there is an important proviso.

It can be summed up in a single word: reciprocity. It means that if Muslims want to enjoy religious freedom in the West, then Christians should have an equal right to follow their faith in Islamic states, without fear of persecution.

... read the whole article.

With good reason - read the whole of this article.

Seth says

This may or may not shed some light on Pope Benedict's recent behavior ...

... read the whole article.

Honorable says
brothers and sisters, boys and gals
cant we like, get along?
furthermore, a question for the pope if some one knows his email
was "God" happy for the "reason" behind setting up the Spanish inquestion?

Was "God" happy with the "reason" behind the two world wars?

Cant some of us like, get a life and talk about stuff that can help all of us live better on this earth befor we meet God and then we would know what kind of reason he finds most interesting!

The funny thing is, for the life of me; I can not smell reason for God letting his own son dies for the human mankind were he could have easly forgiven each and every one of us!

so let us all sing, the Pope leading if we can, (You say reason I say idiocy I say Idiocy you say reason... cant we all get along) :>

Abu Saleh says
His excellecy, Highness, have the full respect from Muslems of whom I am, I do invite him to read the Holy Qua\'an\'s Translation and then give his views or arrange for a conference of dialogue with the religous leaders so as to close the gap of misunderstandings caused by his lecture which he didn\'t mean it.
Also I wonder why he went to pick an example of dialogue from the Black Age, the present knowledge and technology brings so many wide spectrum of ideas to get the true facts of all religions.
I am not an expert but suggest to the interested friends to have a look in: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/
and I already selected two exampls: (Fight)and (War) and found so many results under each. Thank you all and peace be upon all mankind. Sincerely, Signed: Abu Saleh

(Search: Fight)
2:190 AND fight in God\'s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.

(Search War)
2:213 ALL MANKIND were once one single community; [then they began to differ - ] whereupon God raised up the prophets as heralds of glad tidings and as warners, and through them bestowed revelation from on high, setting forth the truth, so that it might decide between people with regard to all on which they had come to hold divergent views. Yet none other than the selfsame people who had been granted this [revelation] began, out of mutual jealousy, to disagree about its meaning after all evidence of the truth had come unto them. But God guided the believers unto the truth about which, by His leave, they had disagreed: for God guides onto a straight way him that wills [to be guided].

Abu Saleh says
Kindly get to know Islam from the Holy Koran.
Here is another site fot simple searching:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

abu salim says
I think the POPE remarks is good for Islam because a lots of people will wonder if the Pope remarks about Islam is true or not .They will not find out until they read about Islam and when they do they will discover that Islam is the TRUE religen and will follow it.

abu craphead says
What a sorry state of affairs! CNN story today. Media has rioting & murderous muslims - churches burned, nuns murdered & yet to talk about it (in order to start a dialogue?) by quoting a 600 year old statement is the beast of the absurd. Know what they are by their fruits - rioting, burning churches, killing people, intimidation & bombs. Religion by intimidation & riots - HA! If that is a true religion then I want NO RELIGION AT ALL!

Seth says

Abu Saleh 2006-09-16 22:44:11 4421

His excellecy, Highness, have the full respect from Muslems of whom I am, I do invite him to read the Holy Qua'an's Translation and then give his views or arrange for a conference of dialogue with the religous leaders so as to close the gap of misunderstandings caused by his lecture which he didn't mean it.

Abu Saleh,

Thanks for your comment. I too do not believe that the Pope intended to offend Muslims. I believe that all he wanted to do was to start a dialogue. I think that he wanted to say that there is no "religious motivation for violence". Do you agree that God did not tell people to commit violence except in self-defense ?

word nazi says
Please learn how to spell the word skew. See uri http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=skew&x=35&y=8 for great help!

Seth says
Who mistranslated, CNN or AP ?

source: CNN
which in its totality was an attempt to frankly and sincerely express my great reciprocal and mutual respect with the Muslim faith

source: AP
which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect.

I suggest CNN got it wrong, because the original text of the lecture at Regensburg expressed no great and mutual respect with the Muslim faith, but i did take it as an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue with great mutual respect. Was this just a creless mistake on the part of CNN or an attempt to sque the Pope's words?

karacan says
islam is the peace religion.we respect all religions and we arent allowed to say a bad word about other religions and prophets.and we think other religions give importance to others.but pope 16.benedict ruined that rule.

Seth says

karacan 2006-09-17 08:38:39 4421

islam is the peace religion.we respect all religions and we arent allowed to say a bad word about other religions and prophets.and we think other religions give importance to others.but pope 16.benedict ruined that rule.

Karkacan,

The Pope did not say anything bad about Islam. Please read what he actually did say, i have carefully quoted it above. If you have any problems understanding it, then i will be glad to help you understand it. Who told you that the Pope said something bad about Islam ?

word nazi says
uri http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=askew&x=0&y=0 for askew as well.

Seth says
In interperting my last comment you should know that I do not believe God is bound by human rationality; or that it talks to us in words.

Seth says

The following analysis by by a dissident Swiss theologian sheds light on what Pope Benedict's lecture actually meant. It has finally allowed me to come to grips with the Pope's message.

source: Couchepin backs Pope's Islam comments

The interior minister said that whereas Christianity is based on the Greek wisdom in which faith does not contradict reason, in Islam Allah can do literally everything ? even if that contradicts reason. "That is what the Pope was pointing out and I think he was right."

The Pope pointed that out by double quoting the Muslim philosopher Ibn Hazn. For simpicity and clarity let me paraphrase what me thinks the Pope meant ...

Muslims teach that God's will is not bound by rationality; he is not even bound by his own word.

Now I have two questions. The first is addressed to moderate Muslim jourists: Do you in fact teach that God's will is not bound by rationality, not even by his own word?

The second is to the Pope: To who's reason do you refer, God's or mans? And when you say that for God not to act reasonably is contrary to his nature; are you still refering to same rationality?

Abu Saleh says
Despite HE The Pope's statement on Sunday that he was sorry about his remarks on Islam and holy war had been misinterpreted and had caused offence. Still we need the Popes views on his lecture and the questions raised.

Let me quote the Popes main remarks that he selected and we do ask him to explain the reasons, philosophy, and the lessons that he wants to highlight of each of them. The normal thing of selecting any phrase is that you support and approve it and you emphasize it, and or you disapprove it, and in each case you will elaborate:
I quote of his lecture the following:

1 - "I was reminded recently when I read the dialogue carried in 1391".
Question 1 who reminded your Excellency? And for what reason, what is the relation between your lecture and this reminder"??

2 - "Emperor Manuel's subject is the truth of Christianity and Islam".
Q2 Why this man's dialogue in an uneducated period of black ages and bringing it now means, your Excellency is proud of supporting it or not.

3 - " I would like to discuss only one point of the dialogue faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man" "The context of the issue of "faith and reason".
Q3 Fine selection, but incomplete discussion, and why only limit the discussion to this point and not to have more ideas for a wider discussion.

4 - "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period.
Q4 Who are those experts? Did you ask any Moslem expert to elaborate so as your lecture will be very fruitful and accurate?

5 â?? "When Mohammed was still powerless and under threat".
Q5 You, and your experts are wrong, ask a Moslem experts to find the truth.

6 â?? "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
Q6 "Are you so proud of the Emperor as he expressed himself so forcefully"?

I hope to hear from the advisers of HE The Pope on the above questions, and we do await the explanations of HE The Pope.
To be continuedâ?¦..

Seth says
Abu Saleh

Of course, I cannot answer your questions. But perhaps i can help you get answers. Here are some measures that we can take:

(1) At the bottom of the official text of Pope Benedict's lecture it says: "The Holy Father intends to supply a subsequent version of this text, complete with footnotes. The present text must therefore be considered provisional.". If we keep watching that page perhaps we will see some of your questions answered.

(2) The Vatican has an official web address: http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm which you can click on from here. From there you can follow the hyperlinks to a information page here. Perhaps you can follow up some of those phone numbers and or email addresses to find someone at the Vatican who is willing to answer your questions.

(3) What does the "HE The Pope" in your questions mean? Is that the proper term to use in addressing the Pope?

(4) Do you know any Muslim clerics who can help us frame the questions in a more complete and formal manner?

If you make any more progress on this project, can you keep me informed?

Thanks again for your careful attention to this matter.

Assalaamu

Seth says

I think to start this dialogue that the Pope needs to explain his words and the intention behind them. Me thinks this is already starting to happen. But dialogue is a two way street. In return Muslim clerics need to explain their justifications of violence. Is there a consensus among Muslim clerics in regard to those justifications or not ? I think the world needs to become aware of where this kind of dialogue is taking place.

wayne says
Notwithstanding the "Arab street's" reactions, history clearly shows that the Muslim onslaught of Europe, as promulgated by Mohammed, is fraught with conquest, conversion to Islam under pain of death and a bloodbath in general. The idea that Islam is a peaceful religion is laughable. Check out the Koran 8:12, 2:216,69:30-37 and too many other verses to mention. Theis religion is evil, dangerous and dedicated to the destruction of the Judeo-Christian religions among others. We may, in fact, be witnessing the beginning of the final conflict of good against evil; and I think I know how the outcome must come to pass if the civilized world is ever to see real peace. When the Muslims pause in their sectarian murders to declare Jihad on the rest of the world, we'd better pay attention and do whatever is called for to remove the threat. I don't want MY grandchildren to grow up in a world where some illiterate savage holds a sword to one of their necks and says "Convert or die".

abu salim says
To Abu craphead: When people of Islam behave badly ,it does not mean Islam is bad .Islam is what it teaches (according to the Koran and prophet sayings) and NOT what its followers do.

abu craphead says

abu salim 2006-09-19 04:49:43 4421

To Abu craphead: When people of Islam behave badly ,it does not mean Islam is bad .Islam is what it teaches (according to the Koran and prophet sayings) and NOT what its followers do.

Great! When are you guys, the majority maybe(?), going to reform the minority - the guys that riot, murder, bomb other muslims & chop-off peoples heads. When are you going to accept women as equals ? When are you guys going to get rid of those who spread lies against the West ? Most of the West is curious about other cultures. Most of the West is tolerant. Why should people in the West become interested in a religion & culture that daily shows up with ugly riots for the camera & people saying ignorant things in your own press? My impression these days is that only a minority of muslims can think for themselves - otherwise the mullahs & ayatollahs tell them what to think. BTW, I have known quite a few in the USA who can, but that is a drop in the ocean compared to your billions elsewhere. If you folks are peaceful & in the majority how come you cant reform the minority that are defiling your religion ?

Islamo-Comedy says
The Islamic extremests and their followers are beginning to prove that the quote taken from a 600 year old text is probably true!

Mark de LA says

I wonder if any pope or Christian leader has ever apologized to Islam for the medieval crusades ? Did the late Pope John Paul II ?
I wonder if that is a festering wound that the muslims have never gotten over ?

Seth says

Islamo-Comedy 2006-09-19 07:15:17 4421

The Islamic extremests and their followers are beginning to prove that the quote taken from a 600 year old text is probably true!

Yes, isn't it ironic. The irony is further compounded by the fact that the quote about violence was irrelivant to the Pope's message. It is even more ironic that the idea, which the Pontif quoted, that Muslims teach God's will is not bound by human rationality, is an idea which, me thinks, Islamic clerics would gladly accept. While this irony does not soften the death of Sister Leonella, it does bring to my mind some words of my son, group jason, "Life is mean, and it's funny".

wayne says
Keep talking, folks; but don't let the noise of your dialogues over-ride the deafening silence of the American Muslim leaders who, for all intents and purposes, have nothing to say about Islam's worldwide atrocities. I pray that someday you are not on your knees in front of a scimitar-weilding barbarian who is screaming "Allahu Akbar" before he ends your verbiage forever. As the Special Forces are wont to say, "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out!"

Seth says

wayne 2006-09-19 09:36:40 4421

Keep talking, folks; but don't let the noise of your dialogues over-ride the deafening silence of the American Muslim leaders who, for all intents and purposes, have nothing to say about Islam's worldwide atrocities. I pray that someday you are not on your knees in front of a scimitar-weilding barbarian who is screaming "Allahu Akbar" before he ends your verbiage forever. As the Special Forces are wont to say, "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out!"

Ironically the idea you quoted, wayne, came from a Christian crusader: "When the crusaders asked Arnold-Aimery whom to kill, he said "Kill them all. God will know his own." There are many muslim moderates who are raising their voice against the extreamists who are perverting their religion ... here is an excellant example. There are more mentioned in this tag room. President Bush himself just mentioned a letter from a moderate Muslim group in his address in front of the UN assembly. If you want to hear this message, then all you need do is to listen for it.

Seth says

M 2006-09-19 10:38:12 4421

And then there is the example of (e pluribus unum) a muslim cleric , Anjem Choudary , calling for the execution of the Pope!

M, i believe wayne was looking for voices of muslim moderates. You can find as many examples of muslim radicals as your need ... none of them are particulary note worthy. Btw, you can always link to a wierd url here at fbi by going through tinyurl.com as i have done above.

Seth says
Ok we are starting to see some deeper dialogue regarding the Pope's remarks. Relative to my assertion above that "God's will not being bound by human rationality is an idea which Muslim clerics would gladly accept", we see the following being quoted from a German-Jewish theologian ...

source: Franz Rosenzweig
The god of Mohammed is a creator who well might not have bothered to create. He displays his power like an Oriental potentate who rules by violence, not by acting according to necessity, not by authorizing the enactment of the law, but rather in his freedom to act arbitrarily ... Providence thus is shattered into infinitely many individual acts of creation, with no connection to each other, each of which has the importance of the entire creation. That has been the doctrine of the ruling orthodox philosophy in Islam. Every individual thing is created from scratch at every moment. Islam cannot be salvaged from this frightful providence of Allah ... despite its vehement, haughty insistence upon the idea of the god's unity, Islam slips back into a kind of monistic paganism, if you will permit the expression. God competes with God at every moment, as if it were the colorfully contending heavenful of gods of polytheism.

... which pretty much validates what i said. The rest of Spengler's article from which i drew that quote is titled "Jihad, the Lords Supper, and eternal life" and is well worth a read.

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-09-19 12:38:01 4421

M 2006-09-19 12:26:46 4421

Hmmm... I wonder why finding a moderate muslim is such a celebration or like finding a nugget of gold in a giant pile of coal ?

It is not uncommon for the boisterous sound of dissident voices to drown out the calm expressions of wise men.

Sort of like Nixon's silent majority ? I say, "Where the hell have they been & where the hell are they now ?"

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-09-19 12:20:47 4421

- snip - The god of Muhammad is a creator who well might not have bothered to create. -snip-

It makes one wonder

, if Allah is the creator, why he made so many infidels ? Do your Islamic studies ever answer that question ?

My take on the pope's words goes like this:
Faith is irrational (just like the will & love) - religion is like belief - it's internal & no amount of external coercion by the sword is likely to change those internal beliefs. You probably can spread more of your religion by example & love than by the sword. We in the Western World celebrate that we can believe & have faith in what we want just because it is internal. We can show outwardly something that is contradictory to this because we are free to think & do what we want. This is the enigma - Why can't the Muslim World do the same?

Seth says

M 2006-09-19 12:26:46 4421

Hmmm... I wonder why finding a moderate muslim is such a celebration or like finding a nugget of gold in a giant pile of coal ?

It is not uncommon for the boisterous sound of dissident voices to drown out the calm expressions of wise men.

Seth says

M 2006-09-19 13:13:52 4421

My take on the pope's words goes like this:
Faith is irrational (just like the will & love) ...

I don't see how you got that from the Pope's words. Escpecially when he says "In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university ... as inquiry into the rationality of faith." But it is not just that one quote. The idea that Faith is a kind of super rationality in which the scientific necessity of verification is not required, hovers behind every thing the Pope is saying. Not to mention that he concludes with the now famous: "Not to act reasonably is contrary to the nature of God".

Mark de LA says
Sorry, Seth - it was more of an improvisation on a theme than a strict interpretation of what the Pope said. Like I said previously I found the Pope's erudite pedantry rather hard to follow with any kind of enthusiasm. Apparently I do not agree entirely with the Pope according to your interpretation. Probably very little. There is nothing rational about faith that I can see. There is a long line of justification which shows up to me more like wishful thinking than anything rational or super-rational. Super-rational is just a amazing & humorous piece of fudge. The same kind of thought makes terrorists in the name of Allah actually think by a long line of justification that it is good to let their kids blow themselves up to fight Allah's war against the Jews.

source: "Not to act reasonably is contrary to the nature of God".

... I disagree with the above in the sense that there is more stuff than reason. Art for example. I find more God in art than in reason & science. Reason & Logic are still GIGO processes.

Seth says

M 2006-09-19 21:45:12 4421

Apparently I do not agree entirely with the Pope according to your interpretation.

Nor do I. I see nothing rational about Faith. But then this is not about what you or i believe. Strangely enough my own personal belief about some purported rationality of God falls much closer to what Franz Rosenzweig said above than what Benedict said. Does that make me a Muslim. I think not. Also, as i pointed out way back in the comments, there is this giant confusion between God's rationality and man's rationality. Sometimes the Pope must be talking of the one, and sometimes he must be talking of the other. But they cannot be the same, can they? Does the Pope know something that i do not. Well, of course, he is supposed to. Perhaps when you get to be Pope, your Faith merges with the rationalty of God. Oh my fucking God. Maybe that is it. In any case, i am obviously not a Catholic. But all of that is beside the point. We are here looking for a dialogue between Muslims and Catholics, and not between you and I.

Seth says

source: Who Was the Educated Persian?
Manuel's conversations about Islam therefore took place with an expert in Sharia law in the presence of the sultan. It was Manuel who was in a position of subordination to his Muslim overlords and was at the time a guest of the Qadi.

How interesting indeed, that in the old days of Muslim ascendency, no one offered to cut off the head of the questioning infidel, although they could easily have done so. Instead, his gracious hosts encouraged him to speak his mind and amused themselves by answering his objections and correcting his misconceptions, as they understood them.

Seth says
Re this new dialogue: How long must we wait for this ?

source: bottom of the official page of the lecture at the Vatican
The Holy Father intends to supply a subsequent version of this text, complete with footnotes. The present text must therefore be considered provisional.

Seth says
Finally a "rebuttal" by a Muslim jourist ...

source: Dr Abdelwahab El-Affendi
The skeleton of the pope's argument can be summed up in the following syllogism: Islam is faith devoid of reason; modern secularism is reason devoid of faith; Christianity is a dynamic wedding of faith to reason.

Seth says
The Pope called ambassadors to a meeting today. Below i have pointed to the full text of his remarks ...

source: Text of Popes Remarks To Muslim Leaders at Castel Gandolfo
In a world marked by relativism and too often excluding the transcendence and universality of reason, we are in great need of an authentic dialogue between religions and between cultures, capable of assisting us, in a spirit of fruitful cooperation, to overcome all the tensions together.

Seth says

source: Aljazeera: Iraq priest killed over pope speech

The relatives of a Christian priest who was kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq have said that his Muslim captors had demanded his church condemn the pope's recent comments about Islam and pay a US$350,000 ransom.

The New York Times Misrepresents The Pope's Words

About: Pope Assails Secularism, Adding Note on Jihad - New York Times

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