Israel vs Hamas

source: Hamas rally draws tens of thousands By Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza September 29, 2006
TENS of thousands of supporters of Islamic militant group Hamas held a peaceful rally in Gaza today to denounce the state of Israel and declare that they would never recognise its right to exist.

"We vow to God that we will never recognise Israel even if we would be all killed," Mr Masri told the cheering audience of men, women and children, many of whom were wearing green Hamas baseball caps and held aloft Hamas banners.

I don't understand this. These guys are hurting ... hurting bad. Their economy is in shambles, their government employees are not getting paid, their children are starving, they are in a virtual prision. Yet they will not take the easy, yet necessary, steps tward peace. This cartoon would be funny if there were not so many people suffering (apparently needlessly?). It appears all so totally irrational to me.

Update 10-01-2006 Looks like the doci-doe between Hamas and Fata has changed from phone tag to rioting. One wonders whether it will be resolved any better that way. For my part it appears to be good news. At least there are some Palestinians who are rejecting this insane line of never recognizing Israel.

Update 11-13-2006

source: Hamas Offers to End Rule if Aid Resumes nyt
In a shrewd and dramatic speech, the Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyah, said he would likely resign in the next -two or three weeks- to make way for a national unity government more acceptable to international donors than Hamas, the organization responsible for the deadliest attacks against Israel.

"When they put the siege on one hand, and having me the prime minister on the other, I said

Comments

Seth says

source: aljazeera.net
More than 160,000 Palestinian Authority employees have received no pay since March, following the suspension of direct Western aid and the refusal of banks to transfer Arab donations to government accounts.

... so they protest and a Hamas supporter throws them a bomb,

... wounded five people when he threw a hand grenade into a crowd of police who were protesting in the Gaza Strip at the non-payment of their salaries.

If i may be permmitted a judgement here ... Hamas is bad news for Palestinian people.

Seth says
Apparently some people in Palestine also think Hamas is bad news ...

source: Gaza fighting between Hamas and Fatah kills seven people
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip Hamas militiamen's efforts to break up anti-government protests Sunday sparked running street battles across the Gaza Strip that killed seven people in the worst internal Palestinian violence since Hamas took power.

Militants from the opposition Fatah group retaliated by torching the Palestinian Cabinet building in the West Bank. The spasm of violence dampened already fading hopes for the creation of a national unity government between the two groups that could end crippling economic sanctions.

... may i suggest the old, throw the bumbs out approach.

KamaCommenter says
The cartoon is really funny when animated - doesn't quite come through in the still. (;-))

Seth says
Hey we're on again ...

Seth says

Well apparently they did meet ...

source: NYT

But Mr. Abbas traveled to Gaza, the Hamas stronghold, and met for 90 minutes on Monday night with Sheik Hamad. Immediately afterward, he met Mr. Haniya nearby.

Seth says
Nope, off again ...

Seth says
Here we get what appears to be an infromative reading of how Qatar's Palestinian mediation failed, thanks Aljazeera.

Seth says
Nice sentiments, Condi, now how do we get there from here?

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-10-12 07:57:33 4533

Nice sentiments, Condi, now how do we get there from here?

Excellent question. The roadmap was a good path until Hamas & Hezbollah refused to recognize Israel's right to exist. It's that same question again: How do you negotiate with people who have sworn to wipe you out of existence?
My answer is Victory.

Seth says

M 2006-10-12 08:12:24 4533

My answer is Victory.

Strange answer comming from a person (trying to get out?) of the rwg? But i think that negoitiating is not necessarily the answer either. Just getting some politician to say "we accept the existance of Israel" changes nothing, when we see evidence that Hamma is agressively trying to rearm. The answer is to win the hearts and minds of the Palestinean population to actually choose peace, not to mention the hearts and minds of Isralie population to also choose peace. Then sign areeements that allow this area to recover its dignity and keep to those agreements. Not an easy thing to accomplish. I see no evidence that it will happen in the near future.

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-10-15 16:37:29 4533

choy 2006-10-15 16:01:40 4533

Getting out of the RWG (a path to spiritual progress) is not necessarily aligned with survival & is in most cases is NOT.

Actually i doubt that is true at all. Staying in a loop, duplicating errorrs over and over again, is certainly not conducive to survival. In the matter at hand here, certainly Palestenians insisiting that they can gain victory over Israel is contributing to many deaths ... i don't call that survival. The same can be said for the other side. Standing back and deciding not play a zero sum game ... I win, you loose ... will in most cases lead to survival on both sides. Continuing to play the rwg in persuit of victory, will in many cases lead to death.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I said & you turned it into an axe-grinding RWG. I was only elaborating on the RWG itself & your comment :

source: Strange answer coming from a person (trying to get out?) of the rwg?

... for what it's worth the RWG is primitive self protection at the animal level brought forward into creatures that supposedly can think. It is normally a survival mechanism. How it applies in this case is peculiar. For a people for whom death is victory & martyrdom is preferred to living the mechanism has certainly been tossed on it's ears. Most of these people have no idea what the distinctions of the RWG are anyway. Most of the rest of your further comment in the above is rather incoherent.

Seth says

choy 2006-10-15 16:01:40 4533

Getting out of the RWG (a path to spiritual progress) is not necessarily aligned with survival & is in most cases is NOT.

Seth says
We're on again ...

source: Irish Examiner
Hamas and Abbas close to deal on new government

... but ...

source: Aljazeera.Net
Haniya will not be unity PM

Seth says
But the Bush administration continues to insist on words not deeds ...

source: Washington
The United States said Monday that any new Palestinian unity government must embrace basic principles for international recognition, including accepting Israel's right to exist.

... ignoring that there is probably no path from here to there. A wiser administration would know when to compromise on the words ... and concentrate on deeds that move in the right direction. Oh well ... maybe the Democrats will help out Washington's voice.

Seth says

source: imemc.org
Palestinian resistance factions continued the firing of homemade shells into Israeli areas adjacent to the Gaza Strip in response to the continuous military offensive in the Gaza Strip and the large number of deaths and injuries among the civilians, including children.

... or is it that Israeli IDF continued military offensive in the Gaza Strip in response to Palestinian resistance factions firing of homemade shells into Israeli areas adjacent to the Gaza Strip killing innocent people. Do you scratch because you itch, or itch because you scratch?

Mark de LA says

A link on some of this from Reuters .

Mark de LA says
I think the whole history of the intefada is a history of the chicken & egg problem of who started the atrocities. Might be nice to try it again with some loud announcement & see who blinks first.

Seth says

M 2006-11-16 09:19:53 4533

I think the whole history of the intefada is a history of the chicken & egg problem of who started the atrocities. Might be nice to try it again with some loud announcement & see who blinks first.

Yep, no longer important who started it. Seems to me that either side could claim a moral victory now by being the first party to stop. But maybe they don't stop because they like it. I know that sounds silly, but it is just stupid enough to be true. As a person did you ever keep doing something that you knew was harming you, yet in a way you liked it, so you kept doing it. What we might need is behavioural psychologist to analyze what is going on with these two entities.

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-11-16 12:30:01 4533

M 2006-11-16 12:11:26 4533

What does a retired terrorist do ?

feed worms.

Very Zen indeed!

Mark de LA says

The cartoon is somewhat appropriate!

Mark de LA says

It doesn't seem as Hamas want's peace. See this article today from WND. It sounds like Hamas wants to ramp up the rocket attacks!

Mark de LA says

Well, there appear to be 6 months to crank up a peace which is up a rocky start. Maybe isolating Hamas monetarily has done some good.

Mark de LA says

We are beginning to get an idea of who really wants to keep the war going!

Seth says

M 2006-11-27 07:32:53 4533

We are beginning to get an idea of who really wants to keep the war going!

Yep ... Palestinians shot dead in West Bank.

Mark de LA says

Well, this sounds encouraging. Maybe the terrorists will kill eachother off!

Seth says

M 2006-12-19 08:49:36 4533

Methinks (sic) that Middle Easterners terrorists do anarchy best : that's who they are, that's what they do!

Question: How do you negotiate with an anarchist ?

"That's who they are, that's what they do" is an inaccurate classification. Saying that makes it sound like its a genitic problem .... which it is not. That is a confusion that we do not need and that does not help us understand the problem. These are people employing a tactic to break down an order which they oppose. That order employs tactics to break them down as well. It is a classic zero sum game where both sides are engaged in an endless battle ... the way out is certainly not to engage in propoganda like "that's who they are, that's what they do".

Mark de LA says

Methinks (sic) that Middle Easterners terrorists do anarchy best : that's who they are, that's what they do!

Question: How do you negotiate with an anarchist ?

Mark de LA says

seth 2006-12-19 11:28:01 4533

M 2006-12-19 08:49:36 4533 -snip-

These are people employing a tactic to break down an order which they oppose. That order employs tactics to break them down as well.

Yep, that defines & exemplifies anarchy!

Seth says
Do we see the glimmer of the start of half of the solution ...

source: WashingtonPost.com

Whatever transpires, Gaza has become Hamas's problem. It's a safe bet that the real attitude of Abbas and Fatah is: Let Hamas try to rule Gaza, and good luck.

This turn of events would free Abbas to focus on the much more manageable West Bank, where he can depend on the Israel Defense Forces to suppress challenges from Hamas, and on Jordan and the United States to help rebuild his security forces. As chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization and president of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas is empowered to negotiate with Israel over the disposition of the West Bank. Once he controls the territory, he could make a peace deal with Israel that establishes a Palestinian state with provisional borders in the West Bank and the Arab suburbs of East Jerusalem.

Meanwhile, Palestinians in Gaza could compare their fate under Hamas's rule with the fate of their West Bank cousins under Abbas -- which might then force Hamas to come to terms with Israel, making it eventually possible to reunite Gaza and the West Bank as one political entity living in peace with the Jewish state. It's hard to believe that such a benign outcome could emerge from the growing Palestinian civil war. But given current events, this course is likely to become Abbas's best option.

... I hope so.

Mark de LA says

Here is an interesting picture from a Israeli Peace Movement blogger. Is it paranoia, a better or worse truth, or just shit? If the latter then what is your solution?

Israel vs Hamas

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