Religious Intolerance in General

Seth's comments on another node:
seth 2006-10-27 09:29:32 4776
This brings up an interesting topic.  I imagine there are those who avoid reacting negatively against the intolerance of Muslim extremists.  They might avoid speaking out from fear that  violence could be perpetrated against their person.  Or they might think that it is not pc to speak out against Muslims as a group.  I am not espousing either of those timid reasons.  I think that people speaking out against intolerance is a good thing and not one that should be avoided.  All i am saying is that one should emphasize the intolerance aspect of the actions and not it's connection with the religion.  Me thinks that there would always be a way to code one's abhorrence of intolerance yet still not make it show like it was directed against Islam.  I don't know ... this is a new linguistic idea ... i will need to try it out to see if it can be done and whether the message would get lost. 

I think that my statements on racism 714 apply equally to religion as to race with perhaps some contextual material restated.  In any case, that position is more ideal than real - even in a world of new age consciousness.  While there are many religious groups that wage wars of words against each other, Islam seems to be the only one that is acting it all out - particularly in the Middle East!  We can probably resurrect this conversation with more juice when/if we see the Pope visit Turkey!

Tags

  1. religion
  2. language
  3. intolerance
  4. islam

Comments


Seth says
While there are many religious groups that wage wars of words against each other, Islam seems to be the only one that is acting it all out - particularly in the Middle East!
i substantually agree with that statement.  It seems to match most of the facts we are seeing from the USA.  However this node is all about language ... at least my original statement was.  So In line with the above, let me see if i can state  that same message differnetly ... pershaps even more precisely:
While there are many religious groups that wage wars of words against each other, we see many people, particularly in the Middle East, who are using words from Islam to justify acting out violence.
... Did that preserve your meaning?  Is it more (or less) true than your original statement?

Btw, me thinks, if you take an unbiased look at some of the rhetoric comming from some popular Jewish sites, you would grok why i removed your prase "the only one" from my translation.

Mark de LA says
     I'll take the NLP approach for the moment. A belief is just a feeling of certainty about what something is or means. It can be changed. The belief in invincibility of the emperor of Japan was changed in final days of the war in the Pacific 61 years ago. Likewise, the belief in the safety & invulnerability of this country was changed by a huge anchor called 9-11 - 5 years, 1 month & 17 days ago. An anchor, BTW, is just an event with a huge amount of feelings & sensations associated with it.  We may or not have some choice over what we believe. I have learned from NLP that there are processes to change beliefs.  I won't go much farther down this road here except to say that I don't revere beliefs that much nor hold them as static.
     Belief & faith are different things.
     It is not a matter of belief that I hold Islam responsible for a lot of trouble that shows up in the Middle East. I look at what happens & what comes from the people who profess peace & do otherwise & draw rather logical conclusions. Islam needs to reform itself.
     BTW, (just for the record) I don't hold Judaism nor Christianity as practiced blameless either. Christianity is a revolution from within which, in it's essence, transforms the human heart to behave more like the Golden Rule would have it.  Judaism & the doctrine of the "chosen people" seems to ignore recent history; (chosen for what ?)
     BTW(2), has anyone found the Golden Rule in the Koran anywhere ? When last I searched it was said not to be actually in the Koran but only hinted about in some other Hadith.
source: ...

"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself."
-- Koran, Sunnah, from the Islam tradition,
circa 620 AD

... just what does this mean to a muslim ?  Here is a website that addresses the question directly.

     Obviously, (maybe just to me),  if all religions subscribed clearly, directly & unequivocally to the Golden Rule there would be no more trouble between religions - no more religious wars! OTOH, then what would jihad mean to a muslim ?





Mark de LA says
   The thing that I think is disingenuous about your correction is that you seem naively to hold Islam completely blameless. But, Islam is the way of life & being out of which this terrorism & continuous war has grown. This terrorism & war is the fruit of the Islamic tree.  Those who could change the way of being & the fruits of the tree seem to remain very silent or are afraid of it all. They must think that as long as the word of Islam is preached that it is OK.  I don't see any Islamic leaders being excommunicated or having their privileges to proclaim dangerous fatwas excised.  A few moderates does not tip the balance back to a peaceful image in my book!
   While Christians believe that the World would be better off if everyone was a Christian they do not demand it nor nor do they hold everyone who is not a Christian equivalent to an infidel.


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-10-27 15:54:03 4781
Btw, me thinks, if you take an unbiased look at some of the rhetoric coming from some popular Jewish sites, you would grok why i removed your phrase "the only one" from my translation.
The Jewish state was created by the UN. Apparently we are seeing that very few in the Middle East accept what the UN does except when they benefit. For Israel to fight for it's own existence is not surprising & is quite separate from Islam trying to dominate all of the Middle East. Israel's land mass & population is so tiny compared to all that is occupied by muslims that it should be a no-brainer for everyone to sue for peace. But, apparently insanity reigns in that part of the World.

Seth says
M 2006-10-27 21:58:29 4781
   The thing that I think is disingenuous about your correction is that you seem naively to hold Islam completely blameless. But, Islam is the way of life & being out of which this terrorism & continuous war has grown. This terrorism & war is the fruit of the Islamic tree.  Those who could change the way of being & the fruits of the tree seem to remain very silent or are afraid of it all. They must think that as long as the word of Islam is preached that it is OK.  I don't see any Islamic leaders being excommunicated or having their privileges to proclaim dangerous fatwas excised.  A few moderates does not tip the balance back to a peaceful image in my book!
   While Christians believe that the World would be better off if everyone was a Christian they do not demand it nor nor do they hold everyone who is not a Christian equivalent to an infidel.

Belief is a strange animal. It is rarely, if ever, rational.  Where rational, it takes a choice, a calculation, where we think ahead to compare what the world would be should we believe this or that.  Strangely enough i got that from Rudolph Steiner and some from the book The Will To Believe by Henry James. In summary we choose to believe  this or that by an act of will because we think it will make our life better or worse accordingly. Belief is not something that lends itself to the process described in Reading Groups To Read For A Better Truth ... it is an individual choice, not a group process. 

Now assuming that conception of human belief, we can choose to believe propositions like "This terrorism & war is the fruit of the Islamic tree" or rather we can choose to believe that "many individuals have corrupted the scriptures of Islam to justify terrorism and war".   It seems to me that if we believe the latter we are less likely to vilify Islam and pursue a course of war against it.  Hence my translation of your passage above.

BTW, Islam at its core actually means subjugation of one's will to what is best in the universe.  It is a set of beliefs and practices.  It is not something that we can hold for blame ... all blame necessarily falls upon people.  Do you believe that?  How can a set of beliefs, which has as its foundation the subjugation of one's will to what is best in the universe, be to blame for terrorism and war ?

Mark de LA says
When you find LOVE in your heart you may call it the Christ, Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, your .'.Holy Gardian Angel or any other name - I think it's OK.  Cherish LOVE's godlike power & nature so as to motivate good deeds and a life lived by the Golden Rule!  By doing so I suspect that peace will be the least of all your many rewards!

*



Mark de LA says
seth 2006-10-28 08:27:36 4781
-snip- (mostly combative)
While I do not quote scripture to prove anything - these quotes from the New Testament (Matthew 8, 15-18) illustrate my point of view as well.




My previous rainbowed comment is solution oriented rather than combative or argumentative. I will use the 's rule and remove anything that is combative related to the rainbowed comment.



Mark de LA says
Mark 2006-10-28 10:28:42 4781
seth 2006-10-28 10:23:57 4781
-snip-
Fine, then you should remove your combative statement as well and everyting that was in response to it.  Unravel the train of though ... see what ends up staying on the node.
Please follow the topic of your 4607 or is it 4727.
I am removing anything which attacks just the rainbowed comment. I don't know how else to make it clear to you. The rest is fair game!


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