Scariest Headline Yet

About: six arab states join rush to go nuclear - world - times online

Somehow Dr. Strangelove comes to mind & the final theme song.
We'll meet again....  - I updated the song link. Here is more on the song & here.



Again We keep returning to this.  Why? you ask. None of us is playing on the court of real life in this matter.  The court of real life in this matter is probably well beyond anything we would recognize or be related to in our previous lives up till now!  We need to struggle with it well beyond the first idea, the second idea ...., beyond ideas; in conversations with other people - face to face - communicating everything.  An opening beyond the tired old bones of old arguments.  The Internet may or not be useful. Blogs? - just megaphones at this point. (Maybe Tim is right) . IMHO, the court of real life is like when God raps with your soul (to borrow from the again!)  Actually all you have to do is look at the big blue comment in the body of 4882 & follow the references to get the point (hint: it's more than just talk - there's impossible promises too!)

Tags

  1. muclear
  2. war
  3. nu
  4. nukes
  5. item 4880
  6. wnd
  7. yellow journalism
  8. arctic sea ship

Comments


Mark de LA says
This is where the current pressure on Iran seems to be (from Turkey's point of view).


Mark de LA says
seth 2006-11-05 14:10:26 4880
What is strange is that the solution to the Iranian nuke problem came right out of Amendajad's mouth.  He will join in a world wide ban on nuclear wepons.  Me thinks, then that is the solution.  The US and the rest of the 6 current nuclear powers should jointly get rid of all of their nukes.  There should be no nuclear powers.  This is a bomb that nobody needs.  Get the US government to stand behing that proposal ... and you will have your solution.
Trust but verify.  The last country with the hidden nuke wins ! (or loses).


Mark de LA says
Do you ever remember a case in all of recorded history where disarming in the face of the enemy ended up in peace or victory?  The Jews at Masada did a mass suicide, but I hope you don't hold that up as an example. If you do, then it's you first!



Seth says
M 2006-11-05 14:15:00 4880
Trust but verify.  The last country with the hidden nuke wins ! (or loses).
Yes, obviously verify. If we transfer just a fraction of what we spend on our own nukes over to verification, then this probably would work.  The rest of the problem, which needs someone with more nuclear knowledge than me, is how to dispose of all of that fissionable material world wide.  But the point is that if the US takes the lead, this will happen.  If the US hangs back with timid half measures, then it won't work.  The world in which these nukes made any sense (if it ever really made any sense at all)  is already in the past.  It is time to start a new world that recognizes that there is no place for weapons of mass destruction ... even ours. So that getting rid of all of the plutonium world wide just becomes, first a matter of political will, and then a technological problem.  But maintaining our schizoid hypocritical policy will never work.

Mark de LA says
Maybe, then it is the first guy that decides to lie when signing a treaty wins.  It's a stupid & silly idea. Look what happened to N. Korea.  They lied!   How are you going to get all the countries in the UN to cooperate. HA!


Seth says
M 2006-11-05 14:50:16 4880
Maybe, then it is the first guy that decides to lie when signing a treaty wins.   
They cannot lie because of verification.  The technology of finding nuclear activity is quite developed ... check it out.  Also my proposal requires that countries like the US transfer a reasonable fraction of the moneys they have been spending on developing and storing these weapons to setting up the mechinisms of verification.  Taken seriously, this will work. The only thing lacking is political will.

Mark de LA says
Another point of view - I saw only the last 2 minutes. Maybe more on Obsession later. 3972 covered it a little but FoxNews apparently played it last night.
Seth, one should not be afraid of the truth just because he hates it.  If it is false, it should be demonstrated as such.

Mark de LA says
M 2006-11-05 15:00:18 4880
seth 2006-11-05 14:56:00 4880
M 2006-11-05 14:50:16 4880
Maybe, then it is the first guy that decides to lie when signing a treaty wins.   
They cannot lie because of verification.  The technology of finding nuclear activity is quite developed ... check it out.  Also my proposal requires that countries like the US transfer a reasonable fraction of the moneys they have been spending on developing and storing these weapons to setting up the mechinisms of verification.  Taken seriously, this will work. The only thing lacking is political will.
And, NK doesn't have any nuclear material because they signed a piece of paper & had some inspections going on.

Hey! Maybe there's an idea in here. If someone signs the treaty & is discovered to be lying - nuke 'em.  Probably need only one instance, say ... NK.


Mark de LA says
Practically speaking no inspection system is foolproof nor 100% complete.  There are just so many places to hide parts of a bomb & several kilograms of Plutonium. If nothing has been learned in the last few decades is that inspections can always be bypassed, like in Iraq.

Mark de LA says
Wrong node again - the next one goes without comment.
seth 2006-11-05 15:36:52 4894
M 2006-11-05 15:30:21 4894
Getting every country in the world to cooperate or sign a treaty is not something to count on.
Sigh! Sigh again!  Nobody is saying that you need every country in the world to sign a treaty.  Just the 6 (+2) current nuclear powers.  This is doable.  In fact there is quite a bit of momentum in that direction now.  This idea did not just pop into my head today.  It has been mentioned several places all over the world.

Mark de LA says
Here is the neighborhood - I wonder if Seth will make an impossible promise to investigate genuinely this material & report back what the state of the argument really is, who the players are, how fast is movement going, what are the forces that keep it where it is, etc.  And, do it without just the anti-nuke 60's rhetoric out front.  What practical steps can be taken now? Is it a good idea in the first place? A strong nuclear deterrant has been there since Hiroshima & Nagasaki - it has worked so far - why change?


Mark de LA says
& those like Lybia, Egypt & syria - then what ?

Mark de LA says
M 2006-11-06 07:21:39 4880
Here is the neighborhood - I wonder if Seth will make an impossible promise to investigate genuinely this material & report back what the state of the argument really is, who the players are, how fast is movement going, what are the forces that keep it where it is, etc.  And, do it without just the anti-nuke 60's rhetoric out front.  What practical steps can be taken now? Is it a good idea in the first place? A strong nuclear deterrant has been there since Hiroshima & Nagasaki - it has worked so far - why change?

NOPE! Not Seth. He seems to be just another blogging, arm-chair liberal taking pot-shots from the sidelines, vanity stroking his beard thinking he is making a difference by being a megaphone (blogophone) for the mainstream media (or in this case the over-the-hill 60's anti-nuke crowd), 4909 notwithstanding.


Seth says
M 2006-11-05 17:12:28 4880
seth 2006-11-05 16:04:25 4880
M 2006-11-05 15:51:54 4880
& those like Lybia, Egypt & syria - then what ?
Those nations do not have nukes yet, nor is there any current known program.  If the entire world is in no-nukes mode, rather than in a proliferation mode, then discouraging wanna-be nuclear powers will be an entirely different game than it currently is. 
Let's see, Russia, China, US, UK, India, Packistan & maybe Israel have nukes (she has never validated that) - that's 6 or 7.  N. Korea is a maybe.  What forces are going to make sure that none of the rest will go nuclear ? Please enumerate.  We can't even get Russia to say no to nukes for Iran. Once you have a nuclear reactor for power, the rest is engineering.
Actually i don't think that it would be all that difficult to have all the nations in the UN ratify the treaty.  If the (6 or 7 +2) nuclear powers actually get rid of their nukes, i think that the rest of the world will clearly see that a nuke free world is actually achievable.  Especially if we hear more and more about other nations planning to go nuke given the current state of play.  Again, verification with advanced technology is a mandatory part of such a treaty, no trust is involved. If you think about it, there is no advantage for a state to have a secret nuclear weapon ... these things are only useful to a state as threat and deterance against other nuclear powers.  It is a different situation with terroriest.  But if there are no states who have the capability to produce plutonium, then there will be not be any of this stuff laying around for them to get their hands on.  This treaty is achievable and the world is in the right state and frame of mind to actually do it.  Me thinks the US is the biggest bug-a-boo, but if they get behind the movement, it will happen.  

Mark de LA says
Slashdot has more in an item here.
The IISS link is of some value as well though probably beyond my means.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-11-06 05:45:54 4880
M 2006-11-06 05:37:10 4880
seth 2006-11-06 05:26:41 4880
M 2006-11-05 20:32:48 4880
You forget the part where radical Islam wants to take over the world and destroy the West & it's culture.

So far it is politically incorrect & suicide for the so-called moderates to speak out in public about the radicals.  What do you want to do about them if they get the bomb from places like Packistan or Russia ?


i don't see that as having anything to do with nuclear disarmament.
You're still in the loop - I expanded the item this AM.  Radical Islam (Iran-Amadinajad) want the bomb.
sorry, too confusing for me to talk about those two different problems on the same node.
Well, that's OK. I am thinking of making both nodes go dark until the spirit of 4882 is digested & this is recognized.

Seth says
MR 2009-08-18 14:07:46 4880
The Google News front has many who say no nuclear material - hence somebody must have tested for it.

Not by my reading ... i just see where people have speculated about it.  Your logic reads: X speculates that it might have contained nukes, there were no reports of nukes, hence someone must have tested for nukes.  LOL.

Mark de LA says
So nobody tested the ship for radiation?

Seth says
MR 2009-08-18 09:36:36 4880
This one from WND is pretty scary
Radiation tests on shipload of lumber?
Mysteries of hijacked ship raise concerns
Source: ...

The possibility that the ship was carrying a lot more than the lumber that it was reported to hold coincided with bin Laden's most recent public claim that he will "soon have a nuclear weapon in my hands."

This weekend it has emerged that radiation tests have been carried out at the port of Pietasaari after MI6 and officers of the FSB, the Russian security service, arrived at the harbor.

The results of those tests remain a secret. Meanwhile the Russian Navy has dispatched five warships equipped with special equipment �" sensors that can locate nuclear material �" to the Atlantic.

The possibility that nuclear material was hidden aboard the Arctic Sea also was heightened by the report that fissionable material disappeared some weeks ago from a nuclear-storage depot in the Ural Mountains in Russia

...

I wouldn't get too afraid of this.  Reliable sources (UK-Telegraph, video from Russia Today, and today UPI) don't mention any radiation.  The WND source just hyperlinks to a hidden speculation and if your google the topic you end up with just a lot of people day dreaming in blogs and forums.  Apparently this tabloid picked up on that.  When you go through the checkstand in the supermarket do you get scared by the headlines on the tabloid rags?

Mark de LA says
This one from WND is pretty scary
Radiation tests on shipload of lumber?
Mysteries of hijacked ship raise concerns
Source: ...

The possibility that the ship was carrying a lot more than the lumber that it was reported to hold coincided with bin Laden's most recent public claim that he will "soon have a nuclear weapon in my hands."

This weekend it has emerged that radiation tests have been carried out at the port of Pietasaari after MI6 and officers of the FSB, the Russian security service, arrived at the harbor.

The results of those tests remain a secret. Meanwhile the Russian Navy has dispatched five warships equipped with special equipment – sensors that can locate nuclear material – to the Atlantic.

The possibility that nuclear material was hidden aboard the Arctic Sea also was heightened by the report that fissionable material disappeared some weeks ago from a nuclear-storage depot in the Ural Mountains in Russia

...


Seth says
MR 2009-08-18 11:50:13 4880
So nobody tested the ship for radiation?
... don't know; but i could not find any believable source which reported it.  Can you?  But in any case, just testing for radiation does not come very far towards implying the WND tagline:
source: WND
LONDON – Claims that the Arctic Sea – the Russian ship apparently hijacked and missing for two weeks – was carrying a nuclear weapon bound for Osama bin Laden are being investigate by agents for the British intelligence service MI6, according to a report from Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

Let's face it MR, WND specializes in yellow journalism.

Mark de LA says
WND speculated just as you do about what may have happened given other stories on Bin Laden & the nuclear testing. To say that they said that that was what happened is of course your boogy straw man of yellow journalism on their part & yours!


Seth says
MR 2009-08-18 14:05:20 4880
seth 2009-08-18 13:03:10 4880
MR 2009-08-18 11:50:13 4880
So nobody tested the ship for radiation?
... don't know; but i could not find any believable source which reported it Can you?  But in any case, just testing for radiation does not come very far towards implying the WND tagline:
source: WND
LONDON " Claims that the Arctic Sea" the Russian ship apparently hijacked and missing for two weeks " was carrying a nuclear weapon bound for Osama bin Laden are being investigate by agents for the British intelligence service MI6, according to a report from Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

Let's face it MR, WND specializes in yellow journalism.

That's a picture of the Examiner - hence your yellow journalism credentials are established well. Didn't answer the question.
I certainly did provide the best available answer for your question (highlighted in blue above). To be even more explicit I can find no reference to radiation at all except in reports of speculations.  If you still think there is some credence to the radiation end of this, you could subscribe to the WNDs original source and follow the trail from there.  Me i'm looking forward to the novel ... perhaps Forsyth will write it with the same level of detail he put in Dogs of War. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-08-18 13:03:10 4880
MR 2009-08-18 11:50:13 4880
So nobody tested the ship for radiation?
... don't know; but i could not find any believable source which reported it.  Can you?  But in any case, just testing for radiation does not come very far towards implying the WND tagline:
source: WND
LONDON ��" Claims that the Arctic Sea ��" the Russian ship apparently hijacked and missing for two weeks ��" was carrying a nuclear weapon bound for Osama bin Laden are being investigate by agents for the British intelligence service MI6, according to a report from Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

Let's face it MR, WND specializes in yellow journalism.

That's a picture of the Examiner - hence your yellow journalism credentials are established well. Didn't answer the question.

Seth says
seth 2009-08-18 13:33:23 4880
The Google News Front for the ArtiSea is hereMoscow seems to know the most about it.  Lots of speculation ... watch for the movie late next year.  As far as i can tell, WND was the only rag which actually reported the story with the radiation/Bin Laden spin.  I suppose if you had expected truth from WND, you might have been mislead. 
This report seems to me to be the most recent and detailed.  Rumor has it that they will be casting Christopher Walken as leading the hijackers.

Mark de LA says
The Google News front has many who say no nuclear material - hence somebody must have tested for it.


Seth says
MR 2009-08-18 14:21:51 [item 4880]
WND speculated just as you do about what may have happened given other stories on Bin Laden & the nuclear testing. To say that they said that that was what happened is of course your boogy straw man of yellow journalism on their part & yours!

Its not a matter of speculating ... several news news outlets speculated because the event virtually drips in mystery.  But when the other news outlets speculated, they made it clear that they were speculating.  However WND actually reported a claim in their first paragraph ...
source: my  slight revision of WND's first paragraph to clarify
There are claims that the Arctic Sea was carrying a nuclear weapon bound for Osama bin Laden.  Those claims are being investigated by agents for the British intelligence service MI6.  WND's source for this report is Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.
That is making up news. Unless, of course, those claims actually were made by some reliable source, and if they actually were investigated by British intelligence.  If that is the case, then we should dig out our credit cards and subscribe to the G2 Bulletin as they apparently have a mole in MI6.

Seth says
And if you doubt that WND made up this "news", click on subscribe to learn ...
source: shop WND
G2 Bulletin is WorldNetDaily founder-editor Joseph Farah's premium, online intelligence newsletter.
... .

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-08-18 14:42:50 4880
MR 2009-08-18 14:07:46 4880
The Google News front has many who say no nuclear material - hence somebody must have tested for it.

Not by my reading ... i just see where people have speculated about it.  Your logic reads: X speculates that it might have contained nukes, there were no reports of nukes, hence someone must have tested for nukes.  LOL.
google Arctic Sea nuclear stuff did have a bunch of articles whose summaries said there was no nuclear material. That suggested to me that someone had tested for it or listened to a Russian authority tell them that. Anyway keep laughing in your wet dream:


Mark de LA says
I prefer Stratfor as a source of intelligence, but won't pay their prices.

Seth says
source: MR above
[google arctic sea nuclear stuff] did have a bunch of articles whose summaries said there was no nuclear material. That suggested to me that someone had tested for it or listened to a Russian authority tell them that.
... or maybe it was the WND report which had prejudged your parsing:
source: WND  Radiation tests on shipload of lumber?
This weekend it has emerged that radiation tests have been carried out at the port of Pietasaari after MI6 and officers of the FSB, the Russian security service, arrived at the harbor.

The results of those tests remain a secret. Meanwhile the Russian Navy has dispatched five warships equipped with special equipment – sensors that can locate nuclear material – to the Atlantic.
In any case you should have read the article itself and not just the title.  It told quite a different story:
source: Missing ship Arctic Sea not carrying nuclear cargo [emphasis mine]
Jukka Laaksonen, head of the Finnish Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority, said firefighters conducted radiation tests on the ship - last reported off Cape Verde - at a port in Finland before it began a voyage full of intrigue.

But he dismissed as "stupid rumours'' reports in British and Finnish newspapers that the ship could be carrying a "secret'' nuclear cargo that could explain why it was attacked on the Baltic Sea before vanishing.

"Some fireman for some reason thought that there might be some radioactivity involved in this shipment and that was a very stupid idea,'' Mr Laaksonen said.

"There was no basis for that."
Note the "routine" test was performed prior to departure of the voyage. It had nothing to do with the Russians or MI6.

Perhaps this should be posted to your train on where do thoughts come from.

Seth says
There is a good current summary and a map in theBBC report this morning ...



Mark de LA says
seth 2009-08-19 08:18:55 4880
source: MR above
[google arctic sea nuclear stuff] did have a bunch of articles whose summaries said there was no nuclear material. That suggested to me that someone had tested for it or listened to a Russian authority tell them that.
... or maybe it was the WND report which had prejudged your parsing:
source: WND  Radiation tests on shipload of lumber?
This weekend it has emerged that radiation tests have been carried out at the port of Pietasaari after MI6 and officers of the FSB, the Russian security service, arrived at the harbor.

The results of those tests remain a secret. Meanwhile the Russian Navy has dispatched five warships equipped with special equipment ��" sensors that can locate nuclear material ��" to the Atlantic.
In any case you should have read the article itself and not just the title.  It told quite a different story:
source: Missing ship Arctic Sea not carrying nuclear cargo [emphasis mine]
Jukka Laaksonen, head of the Finnish Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority, said firefighters conducted radiation tests on the ship - last reported off Cape Verde - at a port in Finland before it began a voyage full of intrigue.

But he dismissed as "stupid rumours'' reports in British and Finnish newspapers that the ship could be carrying a "secret'' nuclear cargo that could explain why it was attacked on the Baltic Sea before vanishing.

"Some fireman for some reason thought that there might be some radioactivity involved in this shipment and that was a very stupid idea,'' Mr Laaksonen said.

"There was no basis for that."
Note the "routine" test was performed prior to departure of the voyage. It had nothing to do with the Russians or MI6.

Perhaps this should be posted to your train on where do thoughts come from.
Beating up on WND being your current occupation, it should be noted that the news front has long passed & you are still shuttering your windows. The mystery about where the ship was & why is pretty much contained in this Google News train. It's a hijacking in a not so normal place from all the rest off Somalia etc. OTOH, Russia being who they are secrecy wise any scenario is possible; including transfer of cargo at sea after nuclear inspection. I'm very little concerned about the story any more. The truth probably is that we will never know the entire story, particularly if it casts Russia in a bad light.  Why don't you focus more on stories like Obamacare is all about Rationing in the WSJ?

Seth says
MR 2009-08-19 08:39:00 4880
seth 2009-08-19 08:18:55 4880
source: MR above
[google arctic sea nuclear stuff] did have a bunch of articles whose summaries said there was no nuclear material. That suggested to me that someone had tested for it or listened to a Russian authority tell them that.
... or maybe it was the WND report which had prejudged your parsing:
source: WND  Radiation tests on shipload of lumber?
This weekend it has emerged that radiation tests have been carried out at the port of Pietasaari after MI6 and officers of the FSB, the Russian security service, arrived at the harbor.

The results of those tests remain a secret. Meanwhile the Russian Navy has dispatched five warships equipped with special equipment" sensors that can locate nuclear material" to the Atlantic.
In any case you should have read the article itself and not just the title.  It told quite a different story:
source: Missing ship Arctic Sea not carrying nuclear cargo [emphasis mine]
Jukka Laaksonen, head of the Finnish Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority, said firefighters conducted radiation tests on the ship - last reported off Cape Verde - at a port in Finland before it began a voyage full of intrigue.

But he dismissed as "stupid rumours'' reports in British and Finnish newspapers that the ship could be carrying a "secret'' nuclear cargo that could explain why it was attacked on the Baltic Sea before vanishing.

"Some fireman for some reason thought that there might be some radioactivity involved in this shipment and that was a very stupid idea,'' Mr Laaksonen said.

"There was no basis for that."
Note the "routine" test was performed prior to departure of the voyage. It had nothing to do with the Russians or MI6.

Perhaps this should be posted to your train on where do thoughts come from.
Beating up on WND being your current occupation, it should be noted that the news front has long passed & you are still shuttering your windows. The mystery about where the ship was & why is pretty much contained in this Google News train. It's a hijacking in a not so normal place from all the rest off Somalia etc. OTOH, Russia being who they are secrecy wise any scenario is possible; including transfer of cargo at sea after nuclear inspection. I'm very little concerned about the story any more. The truth probably is that we will never know the entire story, particularly if it casts Russia in a bad light.  Why don't you focus more on stories like Obamacare is all about Rationing in the WSJ?
In case you didn't notice, i like to find out what really happened, or at least according to the best information available.  But, yes of course, the Russians could be hiding something sinister and ominous.  I'll probably keep watching the news front while new facts keep emerging ... your conception here of the "news front passing" is not one that i subscribe to.

Seth says
source: MR above
Why don't you focus more on stories like Obamacare is all about Rationing in the WSJ?
Yes it might be interesting to analyze the White House Council of Economic Adviser's report entitled "The Economic Case For Health Care Reform" in the light of the WSJ opinion piece.  The WSJ is a long article and the WH report is even longer, so it might take some time. 

The first thing i came across was ...
source: WSJ
That reduction would be achieved by eliminating "high cost, low-value treatments," by "implementing a set of performance measures that all providers would adopt," and by "directly targeting individual providers . . . (and other) high-end outliers."
... which is a sentence hobbled together by clipped phrases from the report and making up their connection.  There is no such sentence in the report.  But is there such a implication in the report?  And, if so, is it a good idea?  I don't know, that will take a very careful reading.  More later, perhaps, if i have the time. 

Btw, thank you, this report may come closer to the administration's detailed plan than the brief list on their issues page, and as such it may well deserve a careful reading.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-08-19 10:08:27 4880
source: MR above
Why don't you focus more on stories like Obamacare is all about Rationing in the WSJ?
Yes it might be interesting to analyze the White House Council of Economic Adviser's report entitled "The Economic Case For Health Care Reform" in the light of the WSJ opinion piece.  The WSJ is a long article and the WH report is even longer, so it might take some time. 

The first thing i came across was ...
source: WSJ
That reduction would be achieved by eliminating "high cost, low-value treatments," by "implementing a set of performance measures that all providers would adopt," and by "directly targeting individual providers . . . (and other) high-end outliers."
... which is a sentence hobbled together by clipped phrases from the report and making up their connection.  There is no such sentence in the report.  But is there such a implication in the report?  And, if so, is it a good idea?  I don't know, that will take a very careful reading.  More later, perhaps, if i have the time. 

Btw, thank you, this report may come closer to the administration's detailed plan than the brief list on their issues page, and as such it may well deserve a careful reading.
Speaking about hobbled together you should read the HR 3200 itself & wonder why all the confusion & why lack of transparency about the motives of those who put it togerher is an issue. See also my 12395. The administration has no plan. Show me the "this is my plan for Health Care Reform /s/ Barack Obama" anywhere! It is prolly right along side his real birth certificate
 

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  47. Thought about: Hezbollah Denies Firing Rockets at Haifa - Forbes.com with 0 viewings related by tag "war".
  48. Thought Just In Case you Forgot ... with 0 viewings related by tag "nukes".
  49. Thought The Doomsday Machine - Apocalypse Maybe? with 0 viewings related by tag "nukes".
  50. Thought WAR! with 0 viewings related by tag "war".