Fascinating Stuff

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Solutions versus blame game might emerge from thoughts & people like those referenced in the about box above.
This in particular might be interesting to Seth. It seems to align with his point of view but contains language that only Landmark Education graduates are likely to appreciate fully.
I think the discourses model (a network of conversations) is more transformative than arguing through a blog.  I think it is more active than just thinking about a problem.  I consider it a resource for further exploration. 
I wonder if the group goldenrule stuff will ever emerge out of the discourses stuff.

BTW, fighting is about a 4yr. old's "conversation". See this for private material. Think about how far back in life you got the idea to fight about things as a solution to something!
I like this set of the slides of one conversation - in particular the slide of small roles which people take on in discourses has this  entry:





Nailed It!

Tags

  1. discourses
  2. lec
  3. resources
  4. 2000-pound gorilla

Comments


Mark de LA says
I wonder what's something big enough so that you will bump into the phenomenon of the apparent ability of the status quo to defend itself against your contribution?



Mark de LA says
In a way Seth's use of the word "scripts" or scripting is analogous to the term discourses used here.
Please note I want to keep this node for the distinction & contexts of the item topic & save conversations about some particular application on some different nodes.


Mark de LA says
M 2006-11-04 13:58:12 4882
You have a brilliant idea or a movement you may want to start - say flushgov.net.  You begin the conversation wherever you can to get something going. The status quo is the 2000-pound marshallow of society that works to correct things back to a condition of no-change. It's in you & all of us like the RWG is.  An example from the discourses is the meme or discourse that has you stand in a line in the grocery store rather than jumping ahead. Most of the simple ones are transparent in everyday life.  Now try to do something big & see what you run into!
 ... Maybe like stopping the gathering storm & momentum (Dr. Strangelove) of 4880


Seth says
Every new idea must compete for its survival.  The "2000-pound marshallow of society that works to correct things back to a condition of no-change" is the weight of things that have survived because they worked in the past.  Me thinks that is your basic perdicament.  I am as frustrated as you are in trying to implement, (what i think are good ideas), against this 2,000,000 pound gorilla of a culture; but i don't see any alternative to survival of the fittest.  Do you?

Seth says
M 2006-11-04 11:00:36 4882
I wonder what's something big enough so that you will bump into the phenomenon of the apparent ability of the status quo to defend itself against your contribution?
An interesting question.  The status quo is huge.  It is our entire culture.  Some good, some bad, some essential to our survival, some that works against our survival.  The culture (the status quo) is not something than we can afford to diminish in deference to a single individual's influence.  I need more elaboration of this idea to contribute to it further.

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-11-04 12:36:44 4882
M 2006-11-04 11:00:36 4882
I wonder what's something big enough so that you will bump into the phenomenon of the apparent ability of the status quo to defend itself against your contribution?
An interesting question ... perhaps this is big enough ... i don't know.   The status quo is huge.  It is our entire culture.  Some good, some bad, some essential to our survival, some works against our survival.  Perhaps this will get elaborated.
Darcy Burner ? Maybe this should go somewhere else - looks political. You can do a global warming thingy on another node with a linkback here.

Mark de LA says
The resources of the links in the item as well as Landmark Education have a rather firm grasp of the context, distinctions & the process. I have a few friends in that crowd. You need to select your target outside of the RWG (getting to that point is half the process) & articulate the vision.

Mark de LA says
Survival is the lowest level. Everyone who is not dead survived! The 1M#Gorilla is survival. You want to poke your head out of the 1M#G's ass & see what is possible if the dance tune changes !

Seth says
M 2006-11-04 14:22:56 4882
Survival is the lowest level. Everyone who is not dead survived! The 1M#Gorilla is survival.
Here i am not talking about the survival of an individual person.  I am talking about the survival of, for example, a brilliant idea.  Survival of what works is, me thinks, the dominant force in the world.  Considering it "the lowest level" is, me thinks, to ignore the essence of the matter.   Whatever you formulate here, must take that into consideration, if it  is to be at all practical. Can you point out a force (or level) that is higher (more important) than survival of what works, in this regard?

Mark de LA says
seth 2006-11-04 16:25:25 4882
Well you will need to expand on the assumptions behind terms like "a mere machine" and "being".  "A mere machine" seems to be a dismissive judgement against certain kinds of processes.   What is the basis of of that dismissive judgement?  "Being" seems to connote some kind of magical mystical unstated essence.  What is the nature of that essence as it relates to the topic of your item. 

I can easily understand "possiblity".  I think that groups & discourses survive and flourish because they fulfill the social needs of their participants.   How much does the possibility of  a brilliant new idea come to motivate the group discourse twards its implementation?  I don't know ... perhaps you will put some more meet on them bones. 
     The more animal, survival instincts & programming are resident in the medulla oblongata - the lower part of the human brain. Those functions we share with the animals - flight or fight.  Being is one of those hard things to explain. Whether you are being a father or a son or Seth or Bozo or an asshole you are consciously & subconsciously directing your body & what comes with it to realize what you are being. It is a little bit more than behavior & doing. It implies consciousness. It is the answer to the question who am I being at this moment? It is a very long Zen topic. Being doesn't need metaphysics to make itself distinct amongst experience.
     The particular thing I call the American experiment or America survived the originators & several generations more even through today. It is more than survival. When I am being an American I identify with this nation, it's people & culture, it's heart & soul. I hold the discourses passed from generation to generation about the history of this country & her goodness. 
     Being is different from motivation. I don't think that sociologists or even psychologists grok being unless they have had training outside their field.

Seth says
Well you will need to expand on the assumptions behind terms like "a mere machine" and "being".  "A mere machine" seems to be a dismissive judgement against certain kinds of processes.   What is the basis of of that dismissive judgement?  "Being" seems to connote some kind of magical mystical unstated essence.  What is the nature of that essence as it relates to the topic of your item. 

I can easily understand "possiblity".  I think that groups & discourses survive and flourish because they fulfill the social needs of their participants.   How much does the possibility of  a brilliant new idea come to motivate the group discourse twards its implementation?  I don't know ... perhaps you will put some more meet on them bones. 

Mark de LA says
If you think from survival instead of being or possibility you are a mere machine. I presume that that also extends to groups & discourses.  There are certain things that cause discourses to survive. I have not yet plumbed the depths of what that is yet.  I am sort of having that conversation in a chat with my old friend Char from my seminar days right now as we speak. Nobody knows the real future so that what it takes to survive is a fantasy for the most part.

Mark de LA says
Security is mostly a superstition.
It does not exist in nature ..
life is either a daring adventure
or nothing.
-- Helen Keller
 
I would say the same thing about survival. All around there is the flourishing & thriving forces as well as the dying & decaying.  If you look around in nature things everywhere around are being consumed & transformed into other things. Nothing stays the same, nothing survives forever.
 

Mark de LA says
     Mother Nature, Knowledge, Discourse, Memes & Genes, social structures & the like  all have analogous birth, growth, decay & death cycles as well as metamorphoses & transformations. The analogies help you & I to see more not less about any particular subject.
     I don't think that this is what I have called for nor am I advocating anything that could be described like this:
source: ... The culture (the status quo) is not something than we can afford to diminish in deference to a single individual's influence.
...  nor, unless the blessings & nod of the Greater Good looks favorably upon anything I personally initiate is it likely to succeed.  Engaging this topic demands that you get up off the bench & upon the court & play in the game. If you begin by pointing out the 2M#G standing on the court & sit back down I suspect you will miss the daring adventure that HK so engagingly described & played in her lifetime.



Seth says
The things you are discussing about "survival" are not what i was refering to when i mentioned it above.  I am not talking about the survival of an individual person or animal.  I am talking about the force of nature which mandates that something that works will continue whereas something that does not work will be eliminated.  Applying that to your item here,  that means that those social institutions which work will survive, those which do not will eventually be eliminated.  Take for example the Chinease New Year celebration in San Francisco.  Whatever it is, whatever you feel about it, it works ... will continue to work ... and will continue to exist in the culture of San Francisco.  Take for example the Catholic Church ... the same can be said of that.  All of these kinds of things which form what you refer to as  "2000-pound marshallow of society that works to correct things back to a condition of no-change" survive in our culture because they work.  They may not be flourishing, many of them are not ... they may be in a rut, almost all of them are;  but they exist because they work and continue to work.   Most of what you are saying is about the biological aspect of "survival of the fittest" but i am talking just about your term "2000-pound marshallow of society that works to correct things back to a condition of no-change" which i took to be your topic of choice here.   Cut from above, only slightly edited to avoid the same unfurtile path we went down, and with my thesis sentence and my basic question to you bolded, here it is again should you want to continue the dialogue ... 

The status quo is huge.  It is our entire culture ... some of it is good, some of it is bad.  The culture (the status quo) is not something than we can afford to diminish in deference to a single individual's influence.  Every new idea must compete for our attention against those ideas which have already been implemted.  The "2000-pound marshallow of society that works to correct things back to a condition of no-change" is the weight of things that remain because they have worked in the past.  Me thinks that is the basic perdicament of our social institutions.  I am as frustrated as you are in trying to implement, (what i think are good ideas), against this 2,000,000 pound gorilla of a culture.  But i don't see any alternative, do you?

Seth says
M 2006-11-05 11:10:06 4882
.  nor, unless the blessings & nod of the Greater Good looks favorably upon anything I personally initiate is it likely to succeed. 
An interesting concept indeed.  Certain things suceed in the world and others fail.  It does seem as if things need that blessing and nod to succeed.  Why did myspace get the nod, whereas fastblogit did not?  With examples like that as far as the eye can see, it is so very hard for me to characterize the nodder as "the Greater Good". 

Mark de LA says
In my vernacular the Greater Good is what happens & everything else was no good!

     - fbi needs to get some of that
: Out of such detritis springs life ... the hope is that when one understands its pulse, one needs only lightly touch it to encourage "being".
... stuff going!

Mark de LA says
If you wonder why 4880 & 4894 are doomed to failure, read the referenced slides & ponder them for a while. There is more to the process than just talk.
 

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