Patriotism & Politics

Comments


Mark de LA says
That's why we "lost" the Viet Nam War and how Congress is attempting to lose the Iraq war. It is also the way the US will lose control of it's borders!

Seth says
M 2007-02-01 10:08:39 5909
seth 2007-02-01 09:37:49 5909
Is not having to win wars just not being able to get out of a RWG trance ?
Doesn't make sense. Try not using double negatives.
Is having to win wars the same as not being able to get out of a RWG trance ?

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-02-01 10:11:05 5909
M 2007-02-01 10:08:39 5909
seth 2007-02-01 09:37:49 5909
Is not having to win wars just not being able to get out of a RWG trance ?
Doesn't make sense. Try not using double negatives.
Is having to win wars the same as not being able to get out of a RWG trance ?
Let me ask an equally probing question - "Is entering a war without the intent to win something you want the country to do ?"

Mark de LA says
Elsewhere I have said that Wars and the use of an Atomic Bomb are the RWG gone horribly wrong. Getting out of the RWG is like a Zen moment, a rarety so scarce that it may occur in a lifetime of an ordinary human but a few times. To have that occur simultaneously in the Zeitgeist of an entire country or just it's politicians & leaders is about like expecting all the molecules of air in a room to rush suddenly to one end. It defies all probability.


Seth says
M 2007-02-01 10:20:55 5909
seth 2007-02-01 10:11:05 5909
M 2007-02-01 10:08:39 5909
seth 2007-02-01 09:37:49 5909
Is not having to win wars just not being able to get out of a RWG trance ?
Doesn't make sense. Try not using double negatives.
Is having to win wars the same as not being able to get out of a RWG trance ?
Let me ask an equally probing question - "Is entering a war without the intent to win something you want the country to do ?"
Nope ... if Bush had looked at the situation carefully like many of us did in the run up to the war, then he would not have entered the war.  But stubbornly insisting that we must "win" is not just a RWG trance.

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-02-01 10:55:10 5909
M 2007-02-01 10:27:53 5909
Getting out of the RWG is like a Zen moment, a rarety so scarce that it may occur in a lifetime of an ordinary human but a few times.
I totally disagree.  It is a rather frequent occurance.  I don't buy into this line that there is some "Zen moment" required.  All that is required is to grok that stubbornly insisting on being (or doing) right is not necessary in a particular situation ... instead one groks that compromise is possible ... that there is some merit in the opposiong position ...  and/or that there is a win-win alternative.  This happens very frequently ... perhaps not frequent enough ... but certainly more than a mere few times in an ordinary life.  Of course it may happen less frequently with some people than with others.

NOT IN YOUR EXAMPLES - go back to meditating!

Seth says
M 2007-02-01 10:27:53 5909
Getting out of the RWG is like a Zen moment, a rarety so scarce that it may occur in a lifetime of an ordinary human but a few times.
I totally disagree.  It is a rather frequent occurance.  I don't buy into this line that there is some "Zen moment" required.  All that is required is to grok that stubbornly insisting on being (or doing) right is not necessary in a particular situation ... instead one groks that compromise is possible ... that there is some merit in the opposiong position ...  and/or that there is a win-win alternative.  This happens very frequently ... perhaps not frequent enough ... but certainly more than a mere few times in an ordinary life.  Of course it may happen less frequently with some people than with others.

Mark de LA says
I don't remember any of Seth's blogs against the Iraq war before it happened. Saddam violated some 17 UN resolutions & agreements.  Everyone including congress rushed to the podiums of Congress to join in support.  Because the intelligence was faulty or Saddam managed to move the evidence to another country does not hide the fact that Iraq is in whatever state it is right now.  Whatever is going on now is mostly a result of the 2008 electioneering in total disregard of the welfare of Iraq and the United States or her troops. Even James Baker of the Iraq Study Group has said recently:
source: ...

Appearing before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Mr. Baker urged the senators to give the president's plan a chance. "The general (Lt. Gen. David Petraeus) you confirmed 81-0 just the day before yesterday, this is his idea," he said. "He's a supporter of it. He's now the commander on the ground in Iraq. Give it a chance." 


Mark de LA says
You and the anti-war left are so far into the Anti Bush RWG that you believe your own lies. This item was not for that purpose so it is teetering on the brink of existence-nonexistence at this moment. Go see 5915.

Mark de LA says
The Big Lie is also a powerful method of trance induction & propagandizing of a population. See also 5889. Right now the left is doing a good job of it although they seem to believe their own material. While their win in the house of representatives seems to extol their success (~+30 reps gain) their margin in the Senate is razor thin (1 seat difference) and far from a mandate, their big lies notwithstanding. Furthermore, 31 people in the house & senate out of (435 + 100) 535 people +/- the Vice President only shows a trend and is not even close to a mandate - that's a margin of  5.7% . Finally, the way in which the rules of the house & senate are organized such that the party with the most votes, however slim, gets to set the agenda & rule the committees belies the facts that to get anything done it has to be able to override a presidential veto.  The majority rules nature of the organization of Congress, IMHO, frustrates representative government regardless of who is in power.


Seth says
M 2007-02-01 11:02:34 5909
I don't remember any of Seth's blogs against the Iraq war before it happened. Saddam violated some 17 UN resolutions & agreements.  Everyone including congress rushed to the podiums of Congress to join in support.  Because the intelligence was faulty or Saddam managed to move the evidence to another country does not hide the fact that Iraq is in whatever state it is right now.  Whatever is going on now is mostly a result of the 2008 electioneering in total disregard of the welfare of Iraq and the United States or her troops. Even James Baker of the Iraq Study Group has said recently:
I didn't start politically blogging until last year but i distinctly remember thinking the though:  "if we go into Iraq, we will get bogged down in a war like VietNam.  And that eliminating Saddam would destabalize the ME because he was balancing the tables against Iran".  There were many analysist who were saying that. 

Btw you have misrepresented what actually happened.  It has been reported in numerous books by numerous people who were even in the administration and the CIA that Bush, Chaney, Rumsfield and Condy wanted to go into Iraq and shaped the intelligence accordingly.  They then lied to Congress, lied to the UN, and lied to the American people.  It is the height of hyprocracy  that you (and they) now claim "congress rushed to the podiums of Congress to join in support" ... if Congress had been told the truth, the dialogue would have been quite different.

And, btw, i agree that we should to give the president's plan a chance.  But at the same time i think we should track the progress. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-02-01 10:55:10 5909
M 2007-02-01 10:27:53 5909
Getting out of the RWG is like a Zen moment, a rarety so scarce that it may occur in a lifetime of an ordinary human but a few times.
I totally disagree.  It is a rather frequent occurance.  I don't buy into this line that there is some "Zen moment" required.  All that is required is to grok that stubbornly insisting on being (or doing) right is not necessary in a particular situation ... instead one groks that compromise is possible ... that there is some merit in the opposiong position ...  and/or that there is a win-win alternative.  This happens very frequently ... perhaps not frequent enough ... but certainly more than a mere few times in an ordinary life.  Of course it may happen less frequently with some people than with others.
I think you misunderstand what the RWG is. Please visit 1722 again. I left a couple more clues on it this morning. It has nothing at all to do with compromise or the lack thereof.


Mark de LA says
This comment from 1722  belongs more here as it is combative:
source: ...
I dont seen anything new here.  Sure you are saying that if i disagree with you that i am still in RWG.  That is one way to look at it, both from your side and from my side.  But then we knew that ... that is no new information about RWG.  I certainly agree that there is an instinct to preserve one's view that one is right and if someone else disputes that they are wrong ... that is an instinct.  Getting out of that perdicament happens all the time.  Compromise, seeing merit in the other perspective, and seeing win-win alternatives are ways out of RWG.  There are probably others.  Your Zen mysticism still escapes me.  If you are holding up Zen mysticism as a justification for continuing RWG transactions, then i for one want no part of it.  The Zen happens when you get out of the loop ... not when you stay in it and continue with another transaction but see the Zen of it.  
...the red seems to be your latest bug-a-boo or straw-man catch phrase.


Mark de LA says
More on the ship of fools theme:

 

 

 

 

 

 



Tim says
Saddam is dead, he won't be killing 10,000 women and children with chemical weapons ever again or stuffing his political opponants (looks around to see if I have any) into wood chipping machines, alive, feet first... Gee.. who won the war? IMO we did... Now who wants to win the peace? I do... apparently many people don't in order to gain political points so their candidates win the next elections... pretty pathetic if you ask me. Lets bring a level of stabilty and get out of there... can't we all just STFU and get along long enough to do that, then you can whine and cry.