To what end will negotiations bring us ?

About: Talk is cheap

 To what purpose ? What's at the end of the road?

Tags

  1. nukes
  2. iran and the atom bomb
  3. item 6147

Comments


Seth says
Well we all know where making demands and escalating tensions will lead.  Strangely enough that path leads more directly to the picture in your cartoon above, than diplomacy ever would.  If you assume the worst of the opposite side, you will almost always be at least 50% wrong.  These people are humans too.  They have a history of never invading another country.  Here is what their foreign minister is actually saying ...
source: Iran's foreign minister Manouchehr Mottaki
"We believe that there are possibilities for a comprehensive solution... based on two principles -- recognising Iran's right to nuclear technology for pacific purposes and removing concerns over this issue". [emphasis mine]
I say, take them at their word and open a channel.  To think that they are just going to give up their nuclear technology under pressure of sanctions is foolish.  So forget that ... it is not going to happen.  The alternative is a war with Iran.  But that is almost unthinkable.  Instead our government should focus on what is important: (1) no nuclear weapons in Iran, and (2) no distructive war with Iran.  That a "comprehensive solution" may also gain us an ally in our struggle with Al Kida is even more incentive that should bring us to the table.  

Mark de LA says
Well, the case in the picture has already happened.  The only thing leading to an interest to come to the table is that sanctions are being considered.  The rhetoric from Iran is always softer when the UN begins to get serious.  Then as examples we have N. Korea & Iraq who when push came to shove & they wanted bombs they just kicked the UN & the IAEA out & N. Korea made their bombs anyway.  What worked for the standoff between the USSR & the USA was that the USSR failed economically. 

Seth says
M 2007-02-23 15:01:44 6170
Well, the case in the picture has already happened. 
Yes, and the US is asking the UN to through another cycle of the same.  My point is "To think that they are just going to give up their nuclear technology under pressure of sanctions is foolish.  So forget that ... it is not going to happen."

Seth says
As to the important item (1) we have today ...
source: Al Jazeera
After leading Friday prayers in Tehran, Rafsanjani addressed the West directly: "Your most important concern is you do not have confidence that Iran's nuclear programme is not for military purposes. We are prepared to give guarantees that such a thing will never happen."
... of course the West would require that this be more than a mere verbal gurarantee.  But if we establish no nuclear weapons in Iran, then that and that alone should be our goal.  What basis do have to doubt the sincerity of Rafsanjani's entreaty?

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-02-23 15:17:35 6170
M 2007-02-23 15:01:44 6170 -snip-
  So forget that ... it is not going to happen."
When someone on the outside says that (* above) that's the first thing I expect. 
Anyway, Russia & China who trade with Iran seem to think it is in their best interests to slow down the momentum of sanctions.
The main problem with Iran is that they are committed to the destruction of Israel & are contributers to Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria etc. & the insurgency in Iraq.   Are they willing to back down from those stances in order to show their good faith & back away from the brink of their own destruction ?
 (I think not!)

Seth says
source: M above
The main problem with Iran is that they are committed to the destruction of Israel & are contributers to Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria etc. & the insurgency in Iraq.   Are they willing to back down from those stances in order to show their good faith & back away from the brink of their own destruction ?
"Committed to the destruction of Israel" are just bluster words straight out of Ahmadinejad's mouth.  That is all they are.  If you think that this man talks for the entire nation of Iran, there can be no progress.  The real power in Iran rests with the Mullahs who are not talkin in such strident tones.  But with Bush's bellicouse words ... "Iran, the axis of evil" ... and with continued calls for a military action from American and Isralie hard liners, .... not to mention the arrival in the sea of Oman of another carrier ..., is it any wonder that Iran is seriously concerned with their security and desire that to be put on the table?  They are ready to take a "comprehensive" view of the balance in the Middle East, but we cannot expect this proud nation to just back away from all they have gained.  It is time to throw away the old rhetoric that is just getting us closer and closer to a confligration ... and start talking some sense.  With that new sense Israel's problems with Hamas and Hexbollah are going to be part of a "comprehensive" solution.  It is time for the American government to open it's mind.  

Mark de LA says
So many cartoons are appropriate here: Old Ronnie said Trust but Verify! What do you do when they won't let you verify anymore? Iran seems to be folling Kim very-Ill.


Mark de LA says
M 2007-02-23 21:12:42 6170
I think it's time to worry about Stockholm Syndrome again for you. You just don't seem to have a grasp of the situation anymore. If the mullahs are the real power they would not allow Ahmadinejad to be president & speak that way. He speaks for them & the rest of the radical Islamists.
Every desperate grasp for the hope of a Hollywood ending seems to build the delusion.  They keep on playing that game; saying one thing & then doing another.  Saying that the US is the real enemy (in your own words you say we are the cause) is no better than we saying that they are & is a lot more delusional.  In a way it is more believable that Ahmadinejad, having seen what a good deal the N. Koreans are getting is playing brinksmanship better than Western minds to up the ante for a final solution.  Would the West sell out Israel just to avoid the Iranian version of shock & awe?

Mo Grist says
More Grist for the mill.

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-02-24 04:14:32 6170
M 2007-02-23 21:23:18 6170
Every desperate grasp for the hope of a Hollywood ending seems to build the delusion.  ...[absurdities snipped]...  Would the West sell out Israel just to avoid the Iranian version of shock & awe?
 -Bush-bashing snipped-

     Nope! IMHO, the reason we are still in the war is that the liberal half of the country realized shortly after 9-11 that victory would mean they would be out of power for a very long time.  The liberals are so afraid that the surge will work that they have an invested interest in failure & defeat.   Since then they turned into an oppositionist, anti-war, ugly crowd whose rhetoric grows more insulting, crazy & disrespectful by the day - now all power-grabbing for the next election.
     If you want to see what happens with that thoton go master what is in 6065. IMHO, all of the Iraq problems & most of those at home & abroad would suddenly dissolve if your side of the room decided to cooperate for solutions instead of what you are doing now.  A totally united country, regardless of the choices of solution, would impress countries like Iraq, Iran & the EU etc. such that they are more likely to think in a cooperative mode.

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-02-24 10:54:54 6170
-snip good shit-
.  Unfortunately events have a way of spiraling out of control ... frotunately the Mullahs are stepping back from the inflmatory rhetoric and the administration might follow suit ... unfortunately we cannot expect the same from the comic conservatory. 

The MSM* helps as well as they have a dog in this fight.  I was talking more about the liberals in power & out of power who want to preserve or get their job security through Bush-bashing & anti-war rhetoric. Given that laughter may be caused by something exceeding it's obviousness, an old CFR definition perhaps, the comic conservatory is likely to have a continuous supply of material for a long time from the governmental & political sectors.
* MainStream Media, aka the Drive-By Media

Seth says
M 2007-02-24 06:41:39 6170
     Nope! IMHO, the reason we are still in the war is that the liberal half of the country realized shortly after 9-11 that victory would mean they would be out of power for a very long time.  The liberals are so afraid that the surge will work that they have an invested interest in failure & defeat.  
The train of thought in this post reminds me of a book i picked up recently.  Said book was trying to make the case that 9-11 should be blamed on "The Liberals".  The value of such a book lies only in its mirth... which unfortunately was lacking.  Even if you accept the premises, the logic on which its implications are drawn is fundamentally flawed.  It might be interesting to disect that kind of logic ... alas, not today.   Suffice it to say that if you must divide the country into Liberal and Conservitive, then i would fall in the Liberal camp.  Yet i am not afraid that the surge will work ... rather i hope that it does ... and i actually think it has a chance.  It is hard not to respect Law and Order when it is fairly and forcefully applied.  If i were in Congress, i would say and vote to give the surge a chance and get on with other business.  My current interests are in what happens long term (2008 and beyond) in the Middle East.  I doubt that the current administration has either the resourses or the political capital to launch a successful campaign against Iran; so even i, believe Bush, when he says he has no intention to attack Iran.  Unfortunately events have a way of spiraling out of control ... frotunately the Mullahs are stepping back from the inflmatory rhetoric and the administration might follow suit ... unfortunately we cannot expect the same from the comic conservatory. 


- says
Sorry, I rediscovered this one this morning:
 


Mark de LA says
AND, here is another of the Israeli Peace Movement's Uri Avnery's blogs entitled Who's Afraid of the Iranian Bomb? It makes some sense but peters out at the end. Russia & the US stood toe to toe for a long time but didn't use them. There is some hope. I think what everyone needs to be aware of is the difference between Iran & Russia.  In Iran the fear is of a people whose rewards are to be found greater after death. (Or, is that just another fear which is not real?)

Seth says
M 2007-06-16 07:20:27 6170
In Iran the fear is of a people whose rewards are to be found greater after death. (Or, is that just another fear which is not real?)
"Greater rewards after death", or as i like to call it "pie in the sky", is a pretty common theme in most religions ... especially Christianity.  Are those religious wisdoms or fallacious dogmas?  If the latter then it does give us reason to fear the effect of these dogmas on our earthly behavior ... Muhammad Atta being a prime example.  But i don't think this is specific to Iran ... i think we have as much to fear from those who live their lives based upon the book of Revelations.  The solution lies not in fear, but in choosing beliefs that place value in terrestrial life. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-06-16 08:08:38 6170
M 2007-06-16 07:20:27 6170
In Iran the fear is of a people whose rewards are to be found greater after death. (Or, is that just another fear which is not real?)
"Greater rewards after death", or as i like to call it "pie in the sky", is a pretty common theme in most religions ... especially Christianity.  Are those religious wisdoms or fallacious dogmas?  If the latter then it does give us reason to fear the effect of these dogmas on our earthly behavior ... Muhammad Atta being a prime example.  But i don't think this is specific to Iran ... i think we have as much to fear from those who live their lives based upon the book of Revelations.  The solution lies not in fear, but in choosing beliefs that place value in terrestrial life. 
The Christian dogma hasn't recently sent suicide bombers out in the name of Christ (to my knowledge), nor rioted in the streets in his name to convert all other religions to Christianity or die!


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