What's the difference between a liberal and an Islamist ?

About: cartoon by Paul Nowak

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Mark de LA says

Islamic Supremacist Group Holds First U.S. Conference covered by Foxnews of no interest to CNN or apparently Google has only a few articles gleaned from the news stream - no newsfront.

Source: ...

"Hizb ut-Tahrir is one of the oldest, largest indoctrinating organizations for the ideology known as jihadism," Walid Phares, director of the Future of Terrorism Project at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, told FOXNews.com.

Phares said that Hizb ut-Tahrir, rather than training members to carry out terrorist acts like Al Qaeda, focuses instead on indoctrinating youths between ages of 9 and 18 to absorb the ideology that calls for the formation of an empire — or "khilafah" — that will rule according to Islamic law and condones any means to achieve it, including militant jihad.


...

Wikipedia on the group Hizb ut-Tahrir is here.



Seth says
seth 2009-07-18 21:04:47 6650
I heard about the Tahrir on NPR radio .. they went into it in detail ... you can listen here.  I guess something is going around or perhaps some event happened ... now quite sure which.  Cartoon is funny! 
Ok, i missed the event, here it is, reported on their website ...
source: hizb-ut-tahrir.info
Hizb ut-Tahrir America has announced that it will convene a Khilafah Conference on 19th July 2009. The venue is Hilton Oak Lawn9333 S. Cicero ave, Oak Lawn, IL 60453. Further details can be obtained from the official conference website. Conference Trailer:     
I think the Google News Front URL is here with 39 articles, though it has not as yet made the Google front pages.  I expect to see media coverage of demonstrations outside of the event showing up today.  It would be interesting to hear somebody from their group interviewed by the media.  Foxnews is trying to imply a tight link to Al Qaeda, but that is a tenuous fact to amplify.  GlobalSecurity reports the US government's position on the group as follows ...
source: GlobalSecurity.org
The United States Government is continuing to monitor Hizb ut-Tahrir. Despite the statements of governments of the region, the United States has found no clear ties between Hizb ut-Tahrir and terrorist activity. Hizb ut -Tahrir has not been proven to have involvement in or direct links to any recent acts of violence or terrroism. Nor has it been proven to give financial support to other groups engaged in terrorism. Because of that, it falls outside the definitions used by the United States and others to designate a terrorist group.
... and they describe their organizational goals thusly ....
source: GlobalSecurity.org
Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami (Islamic Party of Liberation) a radical Islamic political movement that seeks 'implementation of pure Islamic doctrine' and the creation of an Islamic caliphate in Central Asia. The group's aim is to resume the Islamic way of life and to convey the Islamic da’wah to the world. The ultimate goal of this secretive sectarian group is to unite the entire ummah, or Islamic world community, into a single caliphate. The aim is to bring the Muslims back to living an Islamic way of life in 'Dar al-Islam' [the land where the rules of Islam are being implemented, as opposed to the non-Islamic world] and in an Islamic society such that all life's affairs in society are administered according to the Shariah rules.
So they advocate the establishment of Shariah law, instead of our constitutional law. That implies they are advocating overthrowing the current government, but doing so without  violence.  Apparently they still have the right to congregate here under our constitution.  I think that our way of life and our rule of law will stand up well to Sharia, and I have no worry that they will make any significant inroads with our youth.  It is interesting that other countries, mostly those with no freedom like Iran and Saudi Arabia and Russia, view the group as more of a threat, and have banned it.

Mark de LA says
You deliberately contradict foxnews. You cherry-picked from your article & left out
source: ...

Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) has long accused Hizb ut-Tahrir of links with separatist fighters and alleged Arab mercenaries combating Russian troops in the breakaway republic of Chechnya. It claims the group was recently joined by members of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU), a radical Central Asian-based Islamic organization. The IMU is linked to the Taliban religious militia and was also routed during the US-led military campaign in Afghanistan.

In February 2003, the Russian Supreme Court put Hizb ut-Tahrir and 14 other groups on a list of banned terrorist organizations. A month before, Hizb ut-Tahrir was outlawed in Germany on charges of anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli propaganda.

In June 2003 Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) arrested 121 illegal immigrants suspected of having ties with Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami. The arrests -- the largest swoop yet on the organization within the CIS -- were conducted on 6 June 2003 at a Moscow research plant where the suspects were reportedly hiding from police and immigration authorities. Among the the detainees were Alisher Musayev of Kyrgyzstan and Akram Jalolov of Tajikistan, whom the FSB suspects of being the leaders of the dismantled cell. Moscow media reports said hand grenades, explosives, and ammunition were found on both men, as well as Islamic propaganda leaflets. The FSB said the arrests had only uncovered the tip of the iceberg and claimed Hizb ut-Tahrir has a network of cells covering all of Russia. Most of the detainees were Central Asians, although there were some Slavs and Arabs among them.


...
Before you completely bury your head in the sand you might read Islamists 'urge young Muslims to use violence' and Ziauddin Sardar explains the long history of violence behind Hizb ut-Tahrir and a few more of the referenced articles in Wikipedia on Hizb ut-Tahir.(near the bottom of the page). It sounds to me that it has the same kind of mental disease that Al Queda has.



Mark de LA says
I advocate Liberty, the price of which is eternal vigilance (nothing else at this time); go to sleep or not - it's your option. I prefer to stay awake! Liberals & conservatives may expound their own strategies. Yours is soporific.


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-19 09:23:37 6650
source: MR above
You deliberately contradict foxnews.
I simply reported facts about the event that were skipped in your initial awareness. I do think we have to start with the facts.  Certainly, as foxnews has reported, connections can be made between members of this group and people involved in terrorism.  But our government and the British government have not been able to find sufficent evidance to freeze its funding or prevent it from assembeling.  I'm pretty sure that they have tried.  I don't believe that fact was even hinted at in the foxnews article or in the foxnews broadcast that i heard this morning.  I don't believe that i contradicted foxnews, as much as augmented it.

More to the point is: are you afraid of this group?  Do you not, as i do, feel confident that the American people will choose our own values rather than theirs?
The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance. While HT currently only wants your mind there may be a tipping point where a benign jihad (according to Koran something like our Great Work) turns violent. Wahhabism & others build schools which preach hate of Jews & Western values of independent government from theocracy. HT wants to reassert the language of Arabs into the minds of Islam adherents. If the language equates Jews with pigs & the USA with Satan or some other such abberations they have the first steps complete & the tipping point begins to tip. Read their own website for clues.


Seth says
MR 2009-07-19 09:16:08 6650
seth 2009-07-19 09:11:08 6650
MR 2009-07-19 08:55:47 6650
seth 2009-07-19 08:30:00 6650
source: MR above back slides
Before you completely bury your head in the sand
That statement is about your assumptions about me, and those assumptions are false.  It was unnecessary to your point to put that in.  Now i will try to comprehend your point without the static of your erronious assumptions about me, but it will be far more difficult than had you left them out. 
It's not personal. Your stand so far has shown at almost every step a refusal to acknowledge that fundamental to Islam's obedience & history which grew out of fighting that a large part of who they are is an anathema to democracy & Western life. "bury your head in the sand" is a shortcut phrase which gets to the point sooner.  If I had said that you have your head up your ass, though, that you would have been justified to take it personally.
The pertinent point here is that your assumption above that i have just bolded is false.  Fact is that there is no doubt in my mind that some of the fundamental principals behind [radical] Islam are anathema to "democracy & Western life".  Every time you have made assumptions about my beliefs and intentions you have been wildly wide of the mark.
Where in your writing have you demonstrated anything like that until now?
Well i started reading and writing about Islam pretty much in response to the trend in conservative though in this country to talk up a religious war against Islam.  Obviously I am against that talk and that war. But in that context i have said ...
source: my comment on 3944 with time stamp 2006-07-16 10:34:22
Personally i don't think it is possible to solve the Middle East war with Islamo-Facists.  These people are not going to cooperate.  They need to be isolated from those people who will cooperate. We need some anti ideals that make the ideals they espouse look weak and crumbel in the minds of the peoples living in the Middle East. 
...
The ideal that cuts through to the heart of the problem is tolerance.
My stand is clear:  I see no reason to fight the Caliphate.  Fighting it will make it stronger.  It would be better to just ignore it.  That doesn't mean that I support it.  Nor does it mean that i believe it's radical teachings are compatible with our way of life, your erroneous assumptions about my stance not withstanding.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-19 09:11:08 6650
MR 2009-07-19 08:55:47 6650
seth 2009-07-19 08:30:00 6650
source: MR above back slides
Before you completely bury your head in the sand
That statement is about your assumptions about me, and those assumptions are false.  It was unnecessary to your point to put that in.  Now i will try to comprehend your point without the static of your erronious assumptions about me, but it will be far more difficult than had you left them out. 
It's not personal. Your stand so far has shown at almost every step a refusal to acknowledge that fundamental to Islam's obedience & history which grew out of fighting that a large part of who they are is an anathema to democracy & Western life. "bury your head in the sand" is a shortcut phrase which gets to the point sooner.  If I had said that you have your head up your ass, though, that you would have been justified to take it personally.
The pertinent point here is that your assumption above that i have just bolded is false.  Fact is that there is no doubt in my mind that some of the fundamental principals behind Islam are anathema to "democracy & Western life".  Every time you have made assumptions about my beliefs and intentions you have been wildly wide of the mark.
Where in your writing have you demonstrated anything like that until now?

Seth says
MR 2009-07-19 09:54:28 6650
seth 2009-07-19 09:23:37 6650
source: MR above
You deliberately contradict foxnews.
I simply reported facts about the event that were skipped in your initial awareness. I do think we have to start with the facts.  Certainly, as foxnews has reported, connections can be made between members of this group and people involved in terrorism.  But our government and the British government have not been able to find sufficent evidance to freeze its funding or prevent it from assembeling.  I'm pretty sure that they have tried.  I don't believe that fact was even hinted at in the foxnews article or in the foxnews broadcast that i heard this morning.  I don't believe that i contradicted foxnews, as much as augmented it.

More to the point is: are you afraid of this group?  Do you not, as i do, feel confident that the American people will choose our own values rather than theirs?
The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance. While HT currently only wants your mind there may be a tipping point where a benign jihad (according to Koran something like our Great Work) turns violent. Wahhabism & others build schools which preach hate of Jews & Western values of independent government from theocracy. HT wants to reassert the language of Arabs into the minds of Islam adherents. If the language equates Jews with pigs & the USA with Satan or some other such abberations they have the first steps complete & the tipping point begins to tip. Read their own website for clues.

Thanks for acknowledging that their website does advocate only a benign non violent jihad.  That is the principal point that i think needs to be in any discussion.  Sans that non violence, their rhetoric could be interpreted as advocating the violent overthrow of the government, and that is treason.  As to what they may do, is does not scare me.  I have confidence that our way of life will continue to capture the minds of our children.  Their way of life lacks the freedom that is the thrust of History.  But if we shut them down based upon what they may do, then we have undermined that very freedom itself.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-19 11:23:28 6650
MR 2009-07-19 10:57:50 6650
I advocate Liberty, the price of which is eternal vigilance (nothing else at this time); go to sleep or not - it's your option. I prefer to stay awake! Liberals & conservatives may expound their own strategies. Yours is soporific.

Fine, you advocate Liberty ... but what exactly are you advocating doing in this case?
Vigilance! Didn't you get the point?

Mark de LA says
Here is a little more on the Chicago meeting which mentions some of the illustrative graduates of Hizb ut-Tahrir such as
source: ...

HT boasts a chilling list of murderers among its graduates, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi,

Asif Muhammad Hanif, a British man who blew himself up outside a bar in Tel Aviv, killing four people (including himself) and wounding more than 50; and Omar Bakri Mohammed, a radical cleric currently banned from Britain who praised the 9/11 attacks, raised funds for Hezbollah and Hamas and called for attacks on the Dublin airport because U.S. troops transfered there on their way to Iraq.


...
peaceful little buggers, eh?
ibid: ... As FOX.com reports,

Sheikh Abdul Qadeem Zalloom, the former global leader of Hizb ut-Tahrir, says anyone who rules by a non-Islamic system should “either retract or be killed . . . even if this led to several years of fighting and even if it led to the killing of millions of Muslims and to the martyrdom of millions of believers.”

Hizb ut-Tahrir's official ruling on the permissibility of hijacking planes says, “If the plane belongs to a country at war with Muslims, like Israel, it is allowed to hijack it, for there is no sanctity for Israel nor for the Jews in it.”

And one of the organization's more recent leaflets, published in March, calls for the declaration of “a state of war against America.”

What makes this all so much more horrifying is that this radical jihadi organization, which the Anti-Defamation League says is “banned in several Arab and Central Asian countries, as well as Germany and Russia,” has managed to make dupes of the State Department terror-watchers—and the rest of us—by keeping itself off their list.


...


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-22 10:30:34 6650
The thing i miss in the coverage at fox and the Standard is any pictures or video of their convention.  I mean just how many Tahrir actually had the gumption to show up?  I suspect very few, probably a lot less than show up at skin head conventions.  Fox did show their promotional video, which was pretty terrifying, but i didn't seen any coverage  of the actual convention.  Why leave that out?
I'm sure that FoxNews TV cameras would be welcomed with open arms at the convention, eh? It would be nice, though.


Seth says
seth 2009-07-23 08:37:47 6650
source: MR asks a direct question which i answer
What would you have thought about the story if it had been a group of white supremacists some of whom had a history of joining outlawed neo-Nazi groups?
I would have though pretty much the same as i though about this Tahrir convention.  Both are radical fringe groups who try to puff themselves up to be more than they are. 
Kudos for finding the Guy Benson Townhall interview.   Guy  asked pointed and hard hitting questions and his slant was obvious, but at least he allowed the X-member to clarify what this feels like from the other side.  This is the kind of coverage that i have been missing.  I would like to see more of it.  I'm not defending the group, i just always want to hear both sides of a story - one sided coverage makes me feel queezy.  I would expect nothing less if this was about a neo-Nazi group.  Usually you give the mic to the Nazi and let them bury themselves with their own words.  Strangely enough the caller from Tahrir did not do that, imho.

Mark de LA says
A small "tropical news storm" exists here, the story from Canada mentions:
source: ... Also, the venue for the conference is smaller than HTA's Chicago-area conference. HTA conference-goers filled the Grand Ballroom at the Oak Lawn Hilton for the full-day affair. The Canadian conference is booked in a lounge at the Mississauga Community Center for only two hours in the evening of July 31st.
...


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-22 11:54:37 6650
MR 2009-07-22 10:33:49 6650
seth 2009-07-22 10:30:34 6650
The thing i miss in the coverage at fox and the Standard is any pictures or video of their convention.  I mean just how many Tahrir actually had the gumption to show up?  I suspect very few, probably a lot less than show up at skin head conventions.  Fox did show their promotional video, which was pretty terrifying, but i didn't seen any coverage  of the actual convention.  Why leave that out?
I'm sure that FoxNews TV cameras would be welcomed with open arms at the convention, eh? It would be nice, though.

When a group does not allow media cameras in the room,  then you film the outside of the room and the people going into the room, and sometimes you interview people going in.  For me this lack of coverage just brings up questions about the scale and nature of the actual conference.  I want the whole story, not just that part which is sensational and advances the media's agenda.
What would you have thought about the story if it had been a group of white supremacists some of whom had a history of joining outlawed neo-Nazi groups? While the present news is scarce, the history of former membership is unsavory.
Source: ...

Put simply, Hizb ut-Tahrir serves as an ideological incubator that radicalizes Muslims, some of whom go on to join Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Its roster of notorious alumni includes 9/11 Mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammad and former Al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. Its leaders have urged Muslim governments to hinder international war efforts against radical Islam, and its literature has defended jihad as “legal, an obligation…the apex of Islamic ethics.” An official organization leaflet published in March called for the declaration of “a state of war” against the United States.


 
...A talkshow host, Guy Benson, interviews a person who was inside the conference - transcript here. There is an audio pointed to at the end of the transcript.
source: ...

He added that unlike terror networks’ use of flagrantly illegal attacks, groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir exploit Western societies’ legal protections to further their cause. “The [Muslim] Brotherhood, with Saudi help (and now Hizb is joining the party), have deeply infiltrated the country and brought up two generations of activists in American universities. They are very organized and very disciplined,” McCarthy explained. “Besides not getting enough of our attention, the Constitution is their shield. It's no problem going after people who blow stuff up; but sophisticated advocacy -- cloaked in religion -- of overthrowing the U.S. system gets double-barrel First Amendment cover.”


...


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-23 10:20:02 6650
MR 2009-07-23 09:58:56 6650
Do you consider Al Qaeda just a radical fringe group?
Well Al Qaeda is a radical fringe group. But there is a  big difference between them and the Tahrir.  Al Qaeda is on the US list of groups who support or engage in terrorism - Tahrir is not.  You should also note that Al Qaeda hates the Tahrir and visa versa.  These are different groups with different intentions and different tactics.  Lumping them is not indicated. 

That said now, it should also be said that the Tahrir might just be more of a threat to our way of life than Al Qaeda, but their methods are peaceful and if they remain so, they are protected by our bill of rights.  We should not compromise our own liberties and rights to fight them.  Rather we should shed light on their activities (as you and fox news have done) and strengthen our own Liberties and have faith that our way of life will survive theirs.

One thing was strange in the interview/exchange was that jihad & it's meaning was based on the circumstances (according to the caller). So that presumably, HT could change their peaceful declaration to something else if the situation warranted as apparently some went over to Al Qaeda & did. When does Islamic supremacist propaganda turn into more than just propaganda? What is the tipping point? There is good cause for Vigilance in this matter.

Seth says
MR 2009-07-23 10:31:44 6650
seth 2009-07-23 10:20:02 6650
MR 2009-07-23 09:58:56 6650
Do you consider Al Qaeda just a radical fringe group?
Well Al Qaeda is a radical fringe group. But there is a  big difference between them and the Tahrir.  Al Qaeda is on the US list of groups who support or engage in terrorism - Tahrir is not.  You should also note that Al Qaeda hates the Tahrir and visa versa.  These are different groups with different intentions and different tactics.  Lumping them is not indicated. 

That said now, it should also be said that the Tahrir might just be more of a threat to our way of life than Al Qaeda, but their methods are peaceful and if they remain so, they are protected by our bill of rights.  We should not compromise our own liberties and rights to fight them.  Rather we should shed light on their activities (as you and fox news have done) and strengthen our own Liberties and have faith that our way of life will survive theirs.

One thing was strange in the interview/exchange was that jihad & it's meaning was based on the circumstances (according to the caller). So that presumably, HT could change their peaceful declaration to something else if the situation warranted as apparently some went over to Al Qaeda & did. When does Islamic supremacist propaganda turn into more than just propaganda? What is the tipping point? There is good cause for Vigilance in this matter.
Well "presumably" anything can happen - i would caution against basing decisions on what presumably will happen.   Also please note that when "some went over to Al Qaeda", they did so as a rejection of HT; hence the two groups oppose each other.   Outside of that, me thinks we are in agreement: watch out.

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