Liberal Wet Dream

About: impossible things for breakfast, at the logic caf

source: ...

But there is a price to pay, and it is precisely what the Kochen-Specker theorem warned of: the demise of simple truth and falsity. For all its drawbacks, Boolean algebra does at least allow every statement about our universe to be either true or false. Yet this turns out to be the exception among all the different types of algebras - including the one underpinning quantum theory. The logic associated with quantum topoi encompasses true, false and many shades of grey in between.


... this reminds me of the theory of a better truth !
Anyway the whole article is here in text & the Wikipedia on topos is here.
I wonder if what is missing is the simple ability to reason & the ability to concentrate on what is real; the ability to get to & specify all that is the context of the problem; & mistaking imagination & mathematical models for something real.

Tags

  1. topos
  2. wierd logic
  3. true
  4. false
  5. maybe
  6. worse truth
  7. better truth
  8. logic
  9. quantum logic
  10. misleading headline
  11. quantum physics

Comments


Seth says

Mark de LA says
M 2007-04-16 12:29:43 6853
The quantum world is mostly mathematical modeling & imagination.  That you can get to useful things using those models is remarkable & a lot of engineering experimentation.  Logic is a GIGO function; your asumptions, reasoning & better truth notwithstanding!

Seth seems to be looking for a different kind of logic comparable to the gays looking for a marriage ignoring the obvious problem.

Seth says
It's easier to read Impossible things for breakfast, at the Logic Caf

Seth says
M 2007-04-16 14:44:54 6853
Well, real may include only that which is physical or on the physical plane or not. If real means & includes all that which exists on any plane then you have a bigger sandbox to play in & not all of the laws which apply on the physical plane apply to others.  Currently string like theory has 11 dimensions. 
"Real" is a natural language term and has no precise logical, physical, or even philosophic meaning.  You, yourself have noted that the "quantum world is mostly mathematical modeling & imagination"; but the measurements we take of that world are physical facts on the same footing as "Tehran is 971 miles from Jerusalem as the crow flies".  Real is not a descriptive word that properly refers to facts, rather it is better used to describe our perceptions.  Me thinks that Mattews has abused the term.

Seth says
M 2007-04-17 21:29:40 6853
seth 2007-04-17 16:26:39 6853
M 2007-04-17 14:41:31 6853
Life is also one of those things that is hard to define.  In zoology 1A, they couldn't make the distinction between life & not-life.  But, I know when I have it.
Point is that in the quantum physics lab you don't know if you have it or not.
Well then, not knowing is a state of the scientist not necessarily the Universe.
Right, or more generally all of knowing is part of the knower, not part of the known ... hense my statement above, "Real is not a descriptive word that properly refers to facts, rather it is better used to describe our perceptions."  So far we are safe within our confortable walled garden of the common ordinary world.  But outside that confrot zone, down in the world of quantum physice, it might just be that all of knowing is also part of the known.  Would't that be a hoot?


Seth says
M 2007-04-18 09:17:52 6853
seth 2007-04-18 08:36:02 6853
M 2007-04-18 06:05:51 6853
When you don't know, you just don't know!  Maybe you will know later & maybe you won't. To generalize about knowing so as to make all knowing subjective is a very large stretch; quantum worlds & mathematical models notwithstanding.
Well i don't get that.  All knowing is subjective to the knower.  Another agent making the same inquiry in the same context may form completely different beliefs.  Only where you have processess in common between agents and rules that must be applied in the inquiry, do you get similar beliefs.  This is not a revolutionary idea nor one that should be contraversial. 
Without getting too deep into epistemology, I don't accept your all encompassing statement (in red). You have also introduced the word belief into the muddle. Other stuff like agents, rules, inquiries & beliefs is still more muddle to my simple statement; your trying to remove any controversiality from your statement notwithstanding.
Well i don't want to go down the rat hole that is epistemology either; but on the other hand we dont't need to be quite so noncommittal:

Definitions:
(1) proposition: a statement.
(2) true proposition: a statement which agrees with the facts sensed by some agent in some context.
(3) agent: an entity capable of sensing its environment, matching its environment to its internal models, and asserting propositions about those matches within a context.
(4) inquiry: a process that ends in an agent asserting a proposition that it holds to be true.
(5) context: a collection of circumstances.

Observations from our history:
(6) Different agents assert different propositions are true in the same context.

Implication:
(7) Since the truth of proposisions varies by agent, therefore the truth of propositions is subjective to the agent.

This is my first rough raft of this for quite some time so it may need some dinking.  But the concept behind it is pretty solid.  This is pretty hard to break down unless you redefine "true proposition" according to a fixed reference frame that can never be obtained by any  known agent.

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-04-18 08:36:02 6853
M 2007-04-18 06:05:51 6853
When you don't know, you just don't know!  Maybe you will know later & maybe you won't. To generalize about knowing so as to make all knowing subjective is a very large stretch; quantum worlds & mathematical models notwithstanding.
Well i don't get that.  All knowing is subjective to the knower.  Another agent making the same inquiry in the same context may form completely different beliefs.  Only where you have processess in common between agents and rules that must be applied in the inquiry, do you get similar beliefs.  This is not a revolutionary idea nor one that should be contraversial. 
Without getting too deep into epistemology, I don't accept your all encompassing statement (in red). You have also introduced the word belief into the muddle. Other stuff like agents, rules, inquiries & beliefs is still more muddle to my simple statement; your trying to remove any controversiality from your statement notwithstanding.


Mark de LA says
The conclusion in (7) from your statement in (6) begged the question - i.e. GIGO. (6) may be part of experience due to many factors not the lease of which might be that the agents are speaking truths without all of the context specified. Such would occur if assumptions about the context are not fully specified or known.  This latter error is quite often observed on FastBlogIt .  Then there is the story about the 4 blind philosophers (or scientists) who are all observing an elephant & conclude it is snake like, tree like, wall like & perhaps somewhat like an outhouse because of smell of it's rear end.

Mark de LA says
Some of this makes as much sense as Aleister Crowley's Little Essays Towards Truth . The whole bunch is up one level here.


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