Persians Vs Arabs

Persians have been fighting Arabs since Cyrus the Great ventured across the Tigris over 10 centuries before the birth of Mohammad. 
Why is the current conflict in Iraq not better described as Persians vs Arabs, than as Shia vs Sunni ?
If you have an informed answer to the question, leave it in the comments below.

Tags

  1. persians
  2. arabs
  3. sunni
  4. shia
  5. iraq
  6. question~answer
  7. sunni vs shia

Comments


Seth says


Mark de LA says
The video is funny.

Mark de LA says
The Kagen report map in [item 7055] seems quite diversified for Sunni vs Shia.  Have you figured out why they can't get along ? Both are supposedly Muslims. Your google was too much to read. Myself, I suspect it is Iran driving the Shia, trying to reclaim the Persain Empire & lost glory.

Seth says
M 2007-04-30 08:48:23 7016
The Kagen report map in [item 7055] seems quite diversified for Sunni vs Shia.  Have you figured out why they can't get along ? Both are supposedly Muslims. Your google was too much to read. Myself, I suspect it is Iran driving the Shia, trying to reclaim the Persain Empire & lost glory.
Yeah Baghdad seems to be a micorcosm of the larger Iraq ... though not any Kurdish neighborhoods reported.  Why they can't get along is probably very similar to why the Roman Catholics couldn't get along with the Protestants in Northern Ireland.  Even there i think there may have been an economic class distinction between those two factions.  I think that in Iraq there may also be an economic class distinction ... with the Sunni being the upper class because the Shia had been suppressed by Sadam ... which distinction i suspect is changing rapidly.  But what i am asking in this item is that whether the animosity is based more on race with the Persian looking people being distinguished from the Arab looking people.  This is something that i don't know about and am trying to tease out.  What is hard for me to believe is that distinctions based upon religious dogma are sufficient to motivate such viscious killing.

In the end i suspect that it is more like the Hatfields vs McCoys ... the killing is motivated not by cause but by history ... you killed me, now i kill you ... rwg sustained by rwg.  Al Queda knew that tendency in the population and explotied it for the purpose of creating a situation where the glowing democracy that Bush wanted could not survive.  The big question, of course, is predicting whether if that antiginism is removed, will the rwg continue to be sustained?

Mark de LA says
Yep, the RWG is the ultimate cause. No war against the RWG will succeed, either,  because that IS more of the same RWG. J.C. did say words to the effect "Love thy enemy as thyself", but that is too advanced for these times.  We can only look down the road thousands of months to what was fortold, a long time ago, as a brilliant & simple way to live. Even the Christians in Ireland haven't mastered it yet.  Maybe the truce will hold in N. Ireland, maybe not. 

Seth says
source: M above
I suspect it is Iran driving the Shia, trying to reclaim the Persain Empire & lost glory.
More likely it is Al Qaeda provoking Shia in Iraq to create a situation such that the US instigated government can not survive and that the American people will not continue to support US troops in the area.  That, of course, is the common knowledge consensus position not only of the Bush administration, but also of just about every analyst that i have read.  I tend to believe it ... it has been established by the facts on the ground. 

Rather than the Persian empire trying to reclaim Mesopotamia, i suspect again that Iran's involvement has been instigated more by Al Qaeda hoping to Lure US into War with Iran.  But there is no doubt that Persia (Iran) is trying (via the Shia Mullahs) to enhanse it's influence in the region and the world. Strangely enough them getting boged down defending against a Sunni insurgency in Iraq would not seem to be on their adgenda.  Rather they are pushing Muslim Unity (Ijma).  The US, on the other hand, would seem not to want any such Muslim Unity.  So we do have some very strange vectors pulling different directions.  Me thinks it is best now to totally throw out the idea that the enemy of my friend is my enemy to grok the dynamics of the region.

Mark de LA says
Well, I won't be able to cite a source.  Consult National Geographic I'm sure they have plenty of pictures.  In any case physical characteristics meld together with inter-marriage & melding of gene pools. From experience, many years ago from those I encountered at work & play it seems as if the Persian lines had more refined features (according to my Caucasian aesthetics).  Indeed, an extremely beautiful woman (by Western standards) used to work for me from that part of the world.  I don't want to pursue this line of thought, though, as it might fall into my concerns in 714
 

Seth says
M 2007-04-30 10:02:21 7016
Al Queda is small compared to Iran. Unless Ahmadinejad is al queda, something is missing from the puzzle.  Iran didn't even make a safe-haven for UBL after he was driven from Afganistan. UBL is Arab (he even looks like it). I think it is a marriage of extreme convenience, for now.
.... just trying to eliminate any needless confusion in that paragraph. 

There is a large network of radical Muslim organizations and Ulema working against Western influences in  the world.  Al Qaeda is just one of the organizations in the network.  The Arab/Sunni factions of that network are extra national, and, since the fall of the Taliban, there is no one nation that is supporting them.  They thrive in countries and areas where law and order is minimal like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somilia, and now Iraq.  Because they have no conventionl military strength, they rely on terrorist strikes.  I think it has become customary to refer to this larger radical Muslim force simply as "Al Qaeda" such that you are talking only about the Arab/Sunni part of it. 

Ahmadinejad and the Mullahs of Iran are natural enemies of this Al Qaeda force. Cosequently it is not surprising that they "didn't even make a safe-haven for UBL after he was driven from Afganistan".  UBL is Arab, more particularly he is Saudi and Wahhabi and a Sunni.  The Shia  since the Iranian Revolution are also part of the Ulema working against Western influence in the world.  Me thinks it is best to see them as a seperate enemy.   I think you are right, they work with the Al Qaeda force only in a "marriage of extreme convience".  It would not bode well for American interests in the Middle east, should they become unified.  All of that is the conventional consensus thinking that is going around, does not come from me, and does not vary much by partisan source. 

Btw, can you tell the difference between an Arab and a Persian by body characteristics alone?  If so, could you point to some pictures, exclusive of dress, that could be used.

Seth says
Awarness of differences in body characteristics should not be confused with racism which is using those characteristics to justify irational behaviro.  The question this item raises is whether that racism is a factor in the Persian vs Arab fight in the Middle East.  Economic class might also be a factor.  National identity (Iraq, Iran, etc) is another factor.  The question is:  What is the order of importance of thses factors: race, class, nation, religious sect in determining why faction A will kill faction B? 

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