RWG - A Solution ?

About: zen & the art of the right-wrong game

     When I have the feeling that someone has just made me wrong, not-right, or 1-down in some matter there comes an immediate internal need to act upon that & retaliate or make them wrong, not-right etc.
     What are the submodalities of the experience?  Is there a kinesthetic swish-pattern that would work so that I can be with the moment without taking any action. Could I pay it forward in some way to humanity to de-escalate violence & war. Could those that benefit from such a thing then pay it forward to others. In a way it is somewhat like "Forgives us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".
I'm looking for a real solution here not a bunch of intellectuality.  What sort of exercise can we practice here at fbi ?  Perhaps, we can describe such happenings sometime after they occur shedding light on the substance of swish pattern & what was effective in squelching the impulse to retaliate. BTW, it is possible to provide swish patterns en masse through movies & other media.  The 9-11 images are a negative set of swish patterns. We want positive ones here. 
     It could almost be magic!  Once I wrote down in the old CyberMind all the people in my life at the time & what I held against them - what I had not yet forgiven them for in excruciating detail.  I went through each of those things in my imagination forgiving them verbally (internal).  At the end I felt that I had pretty much forgiven them all.  Somehow to this day I can't find the file I created on that it - it is as if it were no longer necessary. They all flew away.
Borrowed from Discovery channel website on Planet Earth.  Incidentally, watching that series does more for my love of the Earth than anything else - it is an awesome series!


  1. rwg
  2. a solution
  3. behavior


Mark de LA says
Memorable quotes from the movie Gandhi:
Nahari: I'm going to Hell! I killed a child! I smashed his head against a wall.
Gandhi: Why?
Nahari: Because they killed my son! The Muslims killed my son!
[indicates boy's height]
Gandhi: I know a way out of Hell. Find a child, a child whose mother and father have been killed and raise him as your own.
[indicates same height]
Gandhi: Only be sure that he is a Muslim and that you raise him as one.
.. in the spirit of what I am talking about.

Mark de LA says
Obviously not many people are actually interested in a solution

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-05-02 08:42:09 7059
I could talk about my solution, but you would just argue and call rwg on me. 
State something positive, without rwg in it & I will read it from that perspective. I'm looking for a real solution not just more of the same.  IMHO, it needs to have something besides intellectuality behind it.  My solution above has something to do & investigate. What's yours? The Golden Rule is the actual solution & will in some future, if the human race still exists, prevail!

Seth says
(1) I think the first behavior pattern to install in reaction to a threat to you eog, is that "this is not about me":  (my ego is attacked ---> but that attack is not about me).  And in fact it probably is not about you, rather it is either about the person making the attack, or it is about the subject matter itself ... and once it is recoginzed as such, neither should elicit a knee jerk response in kind. There could be lots of examples provided here.

(2) Secondly, once it is recognized that the supposed attack is not really an attack and is not about you, install the "what is it really about" response:  (something is here ---> what is it really about).  Here one attempts to find our by careful reading or research what the person perputrating the stimulus is really saying and or intending. 

(3) Thirdly, once you totally grok what is being thrown at you from the perspective of the stimulator you need to install a "how can i advance some common cause with the stimulator": (respond on commn ground, or ignore).   If you already are at absolute cross purposes with the stimulator, then it will be almost impossible not to respond with rwg.  However even if the intentions of the stimulator are opposed to your own it may still be possible to find some common ground.  If you respond to that common ground, then me thinks that your stimulator will be likely to respond in kind.  If, however, you can find no common ground with the stimulator that is withing the context of the stimulus, then the most effective use of your time will be to ignore the stimulus.  After a while you get a certain enjoyment from ignoring stimulus from which you can anticipate no possibility of advancing your own adgenda.  Consequently there will be a win win in any case.

Mark de LA says
     In Seth's idea #1 is the most difficult to make real outside of the realm of the intellectual. Indeed there is no juice unless "it is about me". I don't get upset or a need to defend myself unless something is about me.  I don't get upset if someone says e.g, Fuck You to Seth (unless it was intended to insult the whole family) . As a matter of fact there is no rwg problem unless it is about me.  So, taking the suggestion would need to use the trigger of a feeling of it being a personal insult & turn it into curiosity about the insult giver.  So in NLP terms we would swish from the submodalities of feelings being wronged to the submodalities of curiosity about the source (or another person); the stimulus in Seth's idea.  That could work.  I'll crisp that up a bit.  I think Bandler was good at that one; particularly in dealing with psychotics.
     Next we go from curiosity to responding on common ground (a matching strategy).  I would say somewhere in the midst of the submodalities of curiosity there would have to be the feelings in order: curiosity->aha! (or Eureka!)(found something common)->sympathy->friendly response-> .  Thats a lot to get in a swish pattern.  I'll have to work on that one.  I know that it is possible, but the words & states need to be refined just a bit.  In order to install a strategy without thinking & intellectualization there has to be a transition from one state to the next virtually like a conditioned response.
     Nice going ! There should be a basis to proceed if I understand what Seth has written.

Seth says
Yep i think we are pretty much in sync on this.  I'm not familure with the swish pattern language, but for this example it might look like this ...

attack --> curiousity --> research --> common ground --> respond

Whether something is an attack or not is, of course, subjective.  Many times i have had people take something i said as an attack on them, however i had no such intention in formulating it ... beauty and attack are truly in the eyes of the beholder.  Sometimes, however, an attack is an attack ... but either way me thinks it goes into the same swish ... it's just that the (curiosity-->research) needs to become more creative were the research resolve it to be an intended attack. 

hmm i wonder if this could be applied to international relations.

Mark de LA says
I am curious about what level you are thinking about this.  Is it at a 2-people encounter, blog-web encounter, general or what ?

Mark de LA says
source: ... hmm i wonder if this could be applied to international relations.

I think we need to get past the 2-person encounter before we propagate this anywhere.  I had an argument with wife yesterday which is still there today which reminds me that there is more juice in the moment than just the intellect can handle! I think the model test environment might just be husband-wife.  If we get that licked then maybe we will have something.

Seth says
M 2007-05-03 09:17:31 7059
I am curious about what level you are thinking about this.  Is it at a 2-people encounter, blog-web encounter, general or what ?
General.  I can not think of any agent to agent transaction in which an attack is initially recognized that this could not usefully be applied.  Can you? 

Btw, to be realistic there will be times where (curiosity --> reasearch ) --yields--> imminent danger and then you need to defend.  So we can end up with alternative outcomes: (respond on common ground, ignore, defend). 

Seth says
M 2007-05-03 09:29:55 7059
I think we need to get past the 2-person encounter before we propagate this anywhere.  I had an argument with wife yesterday which is still there today which reminds me that there is more juice in the moment than just the intellect can handle! I think the model test environment might just be husband-wife.  
Well it's normal technology development ... first you get proof of concept ... then the get a production model working ... then you imporve ... the direction of improvement is where you are capable of shorter and shorter timed transactions.  If you can sit isolated from the need to respond like we are here at fbi, then all you need is the 32k swish ... but if you want to take your swish into a argument with you wife, you are going to need the 2gig swish.

Mark de LA says
   We managed to get to back to in about a 1/2 hour conversation complete with both tears & hugs.  The starting state for her was sullen silence; for me hair-trigger rwg on a background of disappointment. My backup plan was to go on strike & watch TV in my big easy chair until communications resumed. Hers was something similar since I found her in her office playing cross-words on the computer. We met on her turf.
  Essentially, the she had gone into a mental tail-spin after I said something (which we will X) & she held me as wrong for saying X. I compounded the problem by swearing at her using all the words I know & made up a few - complete with gestures and an angry face.
   She had already made a breakthrough by getting that my swearing was not about her but more about me.  She also said something that made me laugh.  She complained that calling her names & using swear words was inefficient as none of the words represented anything useful for communication of the problem.  (The attribute cunt didn't communicate anything about the situation X.) All it did was communicate anger.  She also related that usually a person feels hurt first & then comes the anger. She also related (or speculated) that I had been in a tender moment when I communicated intimately X & got angry because I was hurt about communicating that way & then got angry from the hurt. 
   All that seemed true.
   X was a delicate subject.  I communicated quite truly that I had long ago ceased passing judgement on her for X.  I talked her through some anthroposophical views of X in a larger context & that started a much wider discussion of X in other contexts until we realized that X is a problem of the evil of our times & society & is not likely to be solved in several lifetimes. Finally we both agreed & apologized genuinely & hugged. 

Mark de LA says
The analysis:
  • We both agreed at the start that we were in a RWG & that our reactions both hurt & anger were automatic machinery
  • We had common ground before the RWG began which was our years of relationship & love
  • Both of us were on a hair-trigger back into the game & the successful encounter was the 4th attempt on my part.
  • We did a slow swish pattern from the initial conditions to the final condition through conversation - not really a swish pattern.
  • a swish pattern goes from an initial state to a final state by rapidly changing from set of submodalitites to another
    • laughing about the inefficiency of swearing instead of treating it as a black heart on my part
    • treating X as a source of wisdom rather than deep sin & guilt.
    • hurt vs hurt instead of anger on anger -or- love vs hate
    • missunderstanding -> understandings
    • working it out vs maxing out the juices of anger in a black hole

Seth says
Yeah a shared purpose, in the case with you and your wife - living and loving together, is imho a prerequisite for real communication.   Without it there is nothing to prevent random divergence or outright hostility.  Common ground is an attempt to find some kind of shared purpose ... that's just another way to code it. 

Seth says

A swish that i planted in the ground of the woods some time last year ... and it's still there.

Seth says
M 2007-05-05 12:16:03 7059
Is it growing or just marking a path?
It's just sticks stuck in the tundra beside the path.

Mark de LA says
Well we got off topic there a bit.
The use of a swish-pattern in TV commercials is very obvious - most notably in lifestyle commercials for beer, cola & car commercials. The latest VW commercials where you have a boy-poet waxing depression & then suddenly a car goes by announcing 3 models under 15K followed by a change in the poetry is a great example. The same goes for programs themselves.  I noticed last night in ER (which I only watch occasionally), there were flashes of war protesters followed by the trampling of one of the cast's most emotional characters. That is a swish-pattern in reverse; designed to evoke negative reaction for something.

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