Voting does not always yield the best result

About: ** not politics

Well we do have another example of voting where the results are perplexing! If we extend the American Idol lessons into the political arena what do we get?  First off, one of the differences was voting multiple times, all electronic voting & counting & showcasing the campaigning on commercial TV.  The stakeholders were of the fan mentality rather than those vested in life & death issues. There are lots of differences & only a few similarities; the results sometimes being similar! Obviously the media & the 3 judges were rooting for someone else - remind you of anyone?
**

Tags

  1. american idol
  2. voting
  3. end justifies means
  4. 3rd street
  5. item 7276

Comments


Mark de LA says
In America we cherish the notion that we can vote even if the choices are somewhat limited. What else could we have as a replacement? Tests? Someone could know all the right things to say & do but not (for some reason) be able to do them or persuade others to do them. IMHO, the congruency of thoughts, feelings & the will to do them is needed. No test will work for that.

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-05-17 09:31:38 7276
Whatever survives is what is right ... get over it.
Well, for American Idol I am rooting for Jordin anyway. You have apparently sanctified the ends justify the means which I abhor.

Seth says
M 2007-05-17 09:36:30 7276
You have apparently sanctified the ends justify the means which I abhor.
... or you have "sanctified" that one should abhor that the ends justify the means.  Events have consequences ... causes have effects ... our history creates our present.  Denying that is to think in an ethical fog. The ends do not justify the means to you only when you cherry pick the context according to your biases.  But if you consider a complete context --- everything possible about the subject (albiet nobody can stand there) --- then the means to an end, not only justify it, but actually create it ... you don't really have a choice in the matter at all. 

What actually works is what survives.  If Jordin gets more people than Malinda to quiver when she performs, then she is the American Idol ... and rightly so ... that you or Simon Cowell thinks Melinda is selfless and a better singer is of no consequence.

Seth says
M 2007-05-17 13:06:40 7276
seth 2007-05-17 13:00:47 7276
M 2007-05-17 12:58:17 7276
seth 2007-05-17 11:04:08 7276
M 2007-05-17 09:36:30 7276
You have apparently sanctified the ends justify the means which I abhor.
... or you have "sanctified" that one should abhor that the ends justify the means.  Events have consequences ... causes have effects ... our history creates our present.  Denying that is to think in an ethical fog. The ends do not justify the means to you only when you cherry pick the context according to your biases.  But if you consider a complete context --- everything possible about the subject (albiet nobody can stand there) --- then the means to an end, not only justify it, but actually create it ... you don't really have a choice in the matter at all. 

What actually works is what survives.  If Jordin gets more people than Malinda to quiver when she performs, then she is the American Idol ... and rightly so ... that you or Simon Cowell thinks Melinda is selfless and a better singer is of no consequence.
Your sth is basically incoherent missmatching.
No you just don't understand it ... try readiing the words.
I did.  It's all empty intellectualizing from your RWG juices.

If you dont's want just to end with rwg, then ask questions ... that is how you interactively understand something that at first appears to you to be "incoherent".  Of course if you have no intention of understanding, then just say and it all just goes away.

Mark de LA says
... or you have "sanctified" that one should abhor that the ends justify the means. 
  ( a meaningless reversal of my own statement - at best just hostility & polarity missmatching - to assert just the opposite of what I'm saying sheds no light on the discourse)
 Events have consequences ... causes have effects ... our history creates our present. 
 Denying that is to think in an ethical fog.
   (Well, I could quibble about this trite bunch of stuff, but it is an attempt to string together a bunch of so-called truths to enhance the following falsehoods on your part)
The ends do not justify the means to you only when you cherry pick the context according to your biases.  But if you consider a complete context --- everything possible about the subject (albiet nobody can stand there) ---
   (Interesting, but facetious - preparation for an upcoming assertion that is unsupported because nobody is omniscient but needs to be in order to understand or agree with what you assert that follows)
then the means to an end, not only justify it, but actually create it ... you don't really have a choice in the matter at all. 
   (This begs the question & strings two other fallicies on the end)

What actually works is what survives. 
   (The ultimate begging of the question, but I don't equate the words work & survive - at best an uninteresting statement such as "that which IS, IS!" )
If Jordin gets more people than Malinda to quiver when she performs, then she is the American Idol ... and rightly so ... that you or Simon Cowell thinks Melinda is selfless and a better singer is of no consequence.
   (Yep, those are the rules of the game of American Idol.  However, my thesis way back there at the beginning is that voting doesn't always select the best.  (remember to look at the title)  I extended the thesis, half-way in jest, to the political spectrum for amusement.)

So, basically I don't see anything in your post to ask questions about.

Seth says
This dialogue went badly,  i want to clear it up.  The case where the end does not justify the means is where achieving some objective is used to justify a crime or unethical action.   In that case it does not matter that it was perputrated in achieving something good, it is still a crime.   But there are cases where achieving an objective is of a different scale to the crime in question ... if i had to steal $20 to save a life, i would do so.  As a general rule an ethical person will always act ethically and never commit a crime regardless of what he is trying to accomplish; but a wise person will use common sense and proportion in all that he says and does.     When i said "Whatever survives is what is right ... get over it", i was pretty obviously talking about a different kind of situation. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-05-18 07:40:13 7276

This dialogue went badly,  i want to clear it up.  The case where the end does not justify the means is where achieving some objective is used to justify a crime or unethical action.   In that case it does not matter that it was perputrated in achieving something good, it is still a crime.   But there are cases where achieving an objective is of a different scale to the crime in question ... if i had to steal $20 to save a life, i would do so.  As a general rule an ethical person will always act ethically and never commit a crime regardless of what he is trying to accomplish; but a wise person will use common sense and proportion in all that he says and does.     When i said "Whatever survives is what is right ... get over it", i was pretty obviously talking about a different kind of situation. 
Fair enough, I probably agree with most of your specifics. Where I disagree is cases like Al Gore running around the country (on a huge carbon footprint) trying to panic people into global warming schemes, lowering their carbon footprints & survivalist mode saying that it doesn't matter about the science if the end result produces something he deems good.  His means don't justify his ends! Cooler heads should prevail. Coming from the context of scarcity in both time & resources doesn't make the brilliant minds of research & industry work any better. Algore is just trying to build himself some political capitali$m while giving power to the new green communi$m.  Anyway, I will build you a couple more nodes to continue these thoughts somewhere else.


Mark de LA says
From Simon Cowell yesterday:
source: ...

Cowell said it was "unfair" that contestant Melinda Doolittle was eliminated from the show this week.

"She had delivered 10 weeks in a row better than anyone else," he said, adding that the experienced backup singer's age -- Doolittle is 29 -- may have made her less appealing to the show's teenage viewers.

"When you allow the public to choose, you've got to live and die by the vote," Cowell said.


 (it's not all about the singing)


Seth says
As you know Speak To Me Catalog also ran a singing contest where the public chose.   Denise seemed to always want the best singer to win, while i insisted that it was just a popularity contest.  Contestants, as Cowell says,  "live and die by the vote" ... i translate that to ... "whatever survives is what is right".   Those who wanted it to be something different should just "get over it".


Mark de LA says
seth 2007-05-19 09:00:28 7276
As you know Speak To Me Catalog also ran a singing contest where the public chose.   Denise seemed to always want the best singer to win, while i insisted that it was just a popularity contest.  Contestants, as Cowell says,  "live and die by the vote" ... i translate that to ... "whatever survives is what is right".   Those who wanted it to be something different should just "get over it".

I translate it to be garbage in garbage out! Too bad the chick with the short-shorts didn't have more singing talent.
With Seth's perverted logic then if the terrorists take over the Middle East then that's what's right!

Mark de LA says
BTW, nothing & nobody survives forever so everything & everybody is wrong by extrapolation!

Seth says
M 2007-05-19 09:09:49 7276
seth 2007-05-19 09:00:28 7276
As you know Speak To Me Catalog also ran a singing contest where the public chose.   Denise seemed to always want the best singer to win, while i insisted that it was just a popularity contest.  Contestants, as Cowell says,  "live and die by the vote" ... i translate that to ... "whatever survives is what is right".   Those who wanted it to be something different should just "get over it".

I translate it to be garbage in garbage out! Too bad the chick with the short-shorts didn't have more singing talent.
With Seth's perverted logic then if the terrorists take over the Middle East then that's what's right!
What are you calling garbage:  popularity, a popularity contest, voting to determin popularity, or the voting process itself? 

If terrorists take over the Middle East, then that is what happened.  There is no right or wrong about it, it is history. Crying over spilt milk is a waste of time.  If Germany has won WWII and conquered the USA 60 years ago, then most of our population, probably including you, would be hailing the Nazi regime as the right way of the world.  It is very difficult, if not impossible, to stand outside of the history which you are in.  You certainly cannot do it by beliving the talking points handed down by your government.

Mark de LA says
Unfortunately you have strayed & started a new discussion on the usual RWG panopoly!  Let it be said that I am not crying spilt milk as I was for Jordin anyway (said above in my second comment). Somehow your RWG has got you by the nads.  Survival is NOT the ultimate test for goodness or rightness.  That is your materialistic-Darwinian bug-a-boo!  Survival itself is only in the context of a small section of time - remember the dinosaurs. 

Mark de LA says
Discussion has metastasized to node 7309
Please  on this node unless you have something to say about the fallibility of voting!

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