The Silent Thought Project

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What are the sub modalities (in NLP context) of thinking and in particular those which show up to side-track a train of thought from a particular subject? Conversely, what are those that keep the train of thought on the tracks? Where are the tracks, metaphorically speaking? My immediate experience is more like a butterfly flitting from flower to flower enticed by the possibility of sweeter nectar in a flower nearby. What is the character of the nectar, sweetness which changes so fast, metaphorically speaking? Douglas Hofstadter's new book may look at some interesting things in this area, but he is going for the "I" & I am going for the process of thinking. For extra credit I will apply all that is discovered in my observational techniques to the way I form sentences while writing any answers. (This could be a nice little strange loop)

I like this metaphor better!

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Comments

Mark de LA says

While undoubtedly the ideas behind thinking in old habits yields the results you have described, Seth this inquiry is more at the meta level of thinking - more the level you will encounter during a meditation perhaps Za-Zen. Za-Zen or keeping one single thought in your mind without wavering would certainly be a lot easier if old habit could keep you on topic. Indeed, some say once you master it it is that easy. But, if you try keeping one thought and only that thought in mind you will find that various things will lead you astray - that is what I am trying to pin down in this item. How does it occur?

In this morning's meditation I noticed that fleeting images Vi (Visual internal residue) were the predominant interference. Generalizing this I would say that random memory from the preceeding hour came into play. It was particularly frustrating since I had the least control over any of it. The only thing I had control over was returning to my designated object of meditation which was my breathing.

Seth says
I think habit is the strongest submodality. We tend to think the thoughts that we have been accustomed to think. So artifically designating one topic to think about tends not to have any effect, instead we will just continue to think our customary habitual thoughts anyway ... tending always to connect the immediate stimulus to one of our familure and customary thoughts. Here i am proposing to you that the norm is the habit ... staying on one topic is a legislated rule for which there is no enforcement. Metaphorically our thoughs are like fish swimming in water ... and the water is our habits.

Of couse some people may actually have a habit of staying on one topic ... then they will recycle all of their thoughts they are accustome to on that one topic. Then there are others who have a habit of notiing that they are looping on one set of thoughts and start looking for something new.

Seth says

M 2007-07-24 09:59:06 7846

But, if you try keeping one thought and only that thought in mind you will find that various things will lead you astray - that is what I am trying to pin down in this item.

My point is that the predominant thing that leads you astray is your habits. You might at least consider that as one of the answers you are seeking. That habitual behavior is the river in which your thought are constrained to swim.

I guess you are delving into that deeper and asking what habits are fireing - but there are zillions of habits. Are you attempting to classify your thinking habits?

Mark de LA says

I am inquiring into a meta-level below habits. For example, I like & probably eat too much peanut butter. If I examine this as a habit I find that the first thing on the way to haven eaten a spoon of peanut butter is that I see the jar of it or imagine the jar of it (visualization). Then I make up a gustatory, kinesthetic or sensory eating experience of it with a kinesthetic experience in my tongue of salivating & then something corresponding in my stomach & esophagus. Usually somewhere in that last set of feelings there is a motivation or emotion which torches off &, if I am conscious, I wake up in the middle of eating the spoonful or if less conscious I notice it is long gone inside me on it's way to becoming part of a turd.

This is the level of my inquiry. Calling something a habit doesn't help me much when I want to know what the elements & sub-elements of the process are. Whether or not it is habitual is questionable. The juice of the current idea may give way to a juicier thought somewhat like the butterfly having exhausted the flower's sugar juices. The ego & it's will has something to do with whether sidetracking occurs. Thinking about the process is also sidetracking. Sometimes I can tag a thought as off topic long before it gets verbalized. It's harder for me to tag a random Visual internal item (visual memory) because it seems to have more power to lead astray.

Mark de LA says

Since this item's comments seem to have run their course I will make it dark again.

Mark de LA says

A corollary inquiry could be based upon the question How does a train of thought begin?
A train appears to grow in length by association: images, previous similar emotions & thoughts & sometimes a return to a particular purpose for thinking like solving a problem. There is always an opportunity for interruption when the strength of attraction to a particular component provides a positive or negative stimulus to the user.

Mark de LA says

A silent train of feelings project might also be interesting! The other day I examined why I bought a particular package of coffee beans. I don't think there was much verbalization involved at all although there was some low volume acknowledgements of wrong choice etc. This lasted nearly 5 minutes as I don't normally shop for whole bean coffee at Safeway, I found myself out of coffee that morning. A study of this phenomena could provide all kinds of clues pro & con product advertizing.

Seth says

in addition to the above ...
i think a train of thought can be *driven* by pure curiosity.

i suppose that is an emotion

and also by external messages

which are hard to identify as emotion

and also by association of signs - a sign appears in a train and the train then follows the sign - this can drive a train quite randomly

When "the [emotional] charge of something ahead is greater than the steam on what moves the current boxcars down the track", the train changes direction. Resisting or Following the change then becomes a matter of the strength of focus of the agents involved.

Mark de LA says

A train of thought is driven by the steam of emotional purpose - the strong ones I can recognize at this time are:

RWG
the ego's need to find & express
the ego's need to find something interesting
escaping
feeling rather than logic

if the charge (+/-/?) of something ahead is greater than the steam on what moves the current boxcars down the track - side tracks occur.

THis is a metaphoric approach.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-05-20 12:00:32 7846

Einai 2014-05-20 11:33:40 7846

It's hard to tell the difference between a change in direction & running off the track except in consciousness when I wake up to the question "now where was I?" or "how did I get here?" & what did we start off talking about?

no agents show up in my train
I don't allow signs
hard to measure a strength of focus

Well whether it is a change in direction or a running off the tracks is just a subjective judgement.

Waking up to your questions seems to me to be you doing what i would call "focusing".

Of course agents show up in your train ... you simply cannot think in this modern world without becoming aware of the identities of those things which act to produce change. Nor can you disallow signs, unless you just don't want to use the same words as i am using.

Yes, definitely, focus is hard to measure ... but we can distinguish when we start talking about something else ... and we can call that loosing focus.

When you suddenly realize you are somewhere else completely different from where you started on a train of thought - you ran off the track in MY Metaphor. I suspect you are no nearer with your words to figuring out what sidetracks than I am with my wording. This is a 2007 item. I can see thoughts emerging before I let them in for full clothing by words or something else if I choose to. Where thoughts come from is still a question. If you know what sidetracks a train of thought then you aught to be able to stop it.
If you are meditating on a symbol how can you be side tracked by something else in your vernacular?

Seth says

i use external events to sustain focus on a train of thought. inside my experiences are way too turbulent or complex to maintain a continuity. experiences come in moments riding on stormy waves of emotion stimulated by the winds of the deeds of others when i am living in the world and washed by their memories when i am alone.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-27 13:54:42 7846

Einai 2014-06-27 13:34:13 7846

Einai 2014-06-27 13:31:20 7846

Yep, always something different.

... more like a bubble in a stream of consciousness.

well yes, to me there is nothing discordant about something different ... i think it is even how a stream of consciousness grows, see "The wisdom of the natural separation of being". I do suppose that were your train well traveled such novelties that i might present would hit yoour insides as quite uncomfortable. but then you needant encourage such deviations from your accustomed course ... either by opposing and mockin or by patronizing ... simpler just to ignore ... no?

Remember well thy words the next time your inner bubble of rwg finds the urge qualia to cry dissonance.
"

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-27 07:04:19 7846

Nicely poetic - we needed that -

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-27 11:52:27 7846

seth 2014-06-27 11:30:24 7846

Einai 2014-06-27 08:12:09 7846

seth 2014-06-27 07:04:19 7846

Nicely poetic - we needed that -

that representation actually resulted in a train of thought retrieved starting at [item 17505] and following the association along the [tag i] path to this item where the thought got manifested.

so in a way that directly responds to your question, "what are those that keep the train of thought on the tracks?". the external bits of fastblogit forcing the train ... salted there by you and me over the course of about 7 years.

So I have to follow a chain of links to find out the answer? How do I not know that you ran off the track somewhere in that chain of links. I have my own trains which have sudden links elsewhere than to the train station I intended to arrive at when I started the journey. Why others show up is still an unresolved problem except that I can invent a story about it. The answer maybe somewhere in the language of Liber Al
Pure Will, unassuaged of purpose freed from the lust of result is in everyway perfect.
I need to power my engine with enough of that that nothing else sidetracks arriving at the station.

well i don't know what the question is that you expected an answer from me for. i merely recorded the starting node in this network, the path, and the destination here to my comment above ... no question or answer there, just an external train of thought retrieved and extended. and you need not do anything further at all for you have already read and responded to where we are here ... no further research or links to be followed.

see i am introducing the idea of a train of thought that is external to your insides ... i primarily use those to do what you seem to be calling "staying on the train". but then perhaps my trains are quite different from yours, for my trains do not have a known destination when they start.

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-27 08:12:09 7846

seth 2014-06-27 07:04:19 7846

Nicely poetic - we needed that -

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-27 11:30:24 7846

Einai 2014-06-27 08:12:09 7846

seth 2014-06-27 07:04:19 7846

Nicely poetic - we needed that -

Mark de LA says

Yep, always something different.

Mark de LA says

Einai 2014-06-27 13:31:20 7846

Yep, always something different.

... more like a bubble in a stream of consciousness.

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-27 13:34:13 7846

Einai 2014-06-27 13:31:20 7846

Yep, always something different.

... more like a bubble in a stream of consciousness.

The Silent Thought Project

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