Your TAX $$ at Waste

About: Global Warming

source: ... Although the EPA didn

Tags

  1. wasting tax dollars
  2. global skeptics
  3. hydrogen
  4. tesla roadster
  5. cars
  6. algae
  7. joule biotechnologies

Comments


Seth says
More on problems of bootstrapping the electric care here url http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9794984-7.html

Seth says
My solution is to develop a more cost effective battery.  An auto running on battries like the Tesla Roadster is far simpler than a internal combustion engine and does not involve the danger of the transport of explosive gases.   I'm expecting some inventor to announce a 10 fold improvement in cost/weight/efficiency, hopefully soon.  


Mark de LA says
The Tesla is not a serious solution - nice car though. There is a lot of pollution created in the mining and manufacturing of the components of batteries that is ignored. The same goes for fuel cells other than hydrogen ones. It takes carbon based chemicals & oil based stuff in the alternative fuel cells to run them. So far capacitors have a limit based on size.

Mark de LA says
seth 2007-10-07 14:54:35 8218
Dooh! it is not the first degree, that is the problem.  
Well if the first degree doesn't get it on until ~2100 why spend  trillion$$ just to slow it down?

Mark de LA says
My solution is to put 2-4 new nuclear plants in the US and use them exclusively to generate Hydrogen for a hydrogen economy by electrolysis. Have them be self-sustaining except for battery backup or safety needs.
2H2O + e- => 2H2 + O2

(;-))

Mark de LA says
More detailed information on the Tesla via test drive is available in this up to date report.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-04-09 09:30:08 8218
I noticed that the report above came from foxnews. I think you should heed the urgent advise given in this forum.
My initial reaction is to tell you to shove your advice up your ass! But I won't do that. Suffice it to say that your lacking in positive or negative comments sticking to the subject itself leaves you in the poverty of only being able to criticize the messenger & the source without any supporting evidence. The test drive report had some more realistic info on the Tesla all-electric car.
 

Seth says
MR 2009-04-09 10:18:00 8218
seth 2009-04-09 09:30:08 8218
I noticed that the report above came from foxnews. I think you should heed the urgent advise given in this forum.
My initial reaction is to tell you to shove your advice up your ass! But I won't do that. Suffice it to say that your lacking in positive or negative comments sticking to the subject itself leaves you in the poverty of only being able to criticize the messenger & the source without any supporting evidence. The test drive report had some more realistic info on the Tesla all-electric car.
 
Apparently you didn't read the advise and/or have totally lost your sense of humor.  Btw i did skim the Tesla report but it was rather lengthy ... the only news i came away with was that you could actually buy one now, what in particular did you come away with?  As you may remember i think there may be an electric car in my future, but i would want it to be less expensive, not more expensive, than its gasoline counterpart.  On the other hand maybe a biodiesel running on algae power would be a better alternative.

Mark de LA says
The range & battery information & reality check left me a lot less enthusiastic than first look at acceleration & speed. Even the someday coming sedan model isn't really ready to compete with the range & availability of gas engine transportation.  Price alone is an inhibitor. Read it yourself it is not spin or politics.
   OTOH, bio-diesel has the same problem as oil - it is something that has to be burned to make a heat cycle to run an engine; thus it pollutes (not just CO2). It might wean some diesel powered  cars off foreign oil, but as a main fuel it ranks down there with the sampans in Taiwan's harbors that skim the oil off the surface of the harbor, actually any fat works,  and run little two-cycle steam engines off it ferrying sailors to and from the anchored ships. 



Mark de LA says
seth 2009-04-09 11:26:44 8218
source: MR says
OTOH, bio-diesel has the same problem as oil
Nope, we don't need to import bio-diesel from foreigners.  Remember the most important thing about this whole get off oil push. Anyway i had heard that it does burn cleaner.  
It still pollutes. You might do the numbers & inform us how much land & other resources it would take to produce a gallon of bio-diesel & how much bio-diesel it would take to reduce the nation's gasoline use by 1/3 with bio-diesel.  Further numbers would be interesting such as how much converting of the cars we have would have to be done & what pollution that would cause to manufacture & accomplish the re-tooling.
It's easy to come up with grand schemes, but until the holistic picture is in the grok & the numbers are run it's all like the grand schemes Larry Dodson & your friend Eric Reiter came up with on a regular basis - phantasyland.

Seth says
MR 2009-04-09 17:06:37 8218
seth 2009-04-09 11:26:44 8218
source: MR says
OTOH, bio-diesel has the same problem as oil
Nope, we don't need to import bio-diesel from foreigners.  Remember the most important thing about this whole get off oil push. Anyway i had heard that it does burn cleaner.  
It still pollutes. You might do the numbers & inform us how much land & other resources it would take to produce a gallon of bio-diesel & how much bio-diesel it would take to reduce the nation's gasoline use by 1/3 with bio-diesel.  Further numbers would be interesting such as how much converting of the cars we have would have to be done & what pollution that would cause to manufacture & accomplish the re-tooling.
It's easy to come up with grand schemes, but until the holistic picture is in the grok & the numbers are run it's all like the grand schemes Larry Dodson & your friend Eric Reiter came up with on a regular basis - phantasyland.
Bear in mind that i am just talking about Algae and not land based crops.  And yes some running of the numbers is in order and might be possible even though this technology is at a early stage.  I would have done it this morning but i'm still fighting the usual hyperpartisan static.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-04-10 10:03:11 8218
Bear in mind that i am just talking about Algae and not land based crops.  And yes some running of the numbers is in order and might be possible even though this technology is at a early stage.  I would have done it this morning but i'm still fighting the usual hyperpartisan static.
... And creating more of your own! Your usual hyper-hyping, n-wording, hyper-partisanship withstanding, partisanship & polarity are good things.  You would not be inclined to be exposed much to other sides of issues & ideas were it not for polarity.  You would, as we mostly are, be stuck in your own particular model of the World.
    From NLP we have 5 types of matching social behavior meta-programs going on in the low-priced, meat-computer, viz: matching, miss-matching, matching with some sameness, miss-matching with some sameness & polarity miss-matching. A person usually has a predominate style to relate to others & switches throughout life.  I tend to be a matcher with most people, but with you (in politics) I am a miss-matcher. Nate was a miss-matcher bur seems to be somewhat mellowed in his old age.... etc. To continue to assert that polarity miss-matching is wrong is simply the RWG & nothing useful. 
 

Mark de LA says
If you are going to make oil from pond scum you are going to need space to do it, machinery & equipment, a distribution system, raw materials & general capital investment + employees. People generally while scheming can multiply but rarely can add it all up! That goes for all the rest of them like windmills, solar power, atomic energy, bio-waste methane, ethanol, hydrogen, fuelcells ...etc. One would think that the Department of Energy would have already done this years ago & made the equations available to the public. Perhaps though it would have ruled out some of their pet projects. Some like ethanol require huge public subsidies to make them work. That's why environmentalists want a carbon tax & Obama wants to raise the cost of gasoline back to the $4 levels.  The best is to come up with the numbers first in a cost/benefit/environmental study - then choose a couple & go balls to the wall in a NASA style operation and then ...


Seth says
There is another lead in your 9743.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-04-10 16:40:21 8218
Prolly so, but $2.00 makes the enterprise doable.  Diesel is now around $2.25 when oil is at $52 ... with oil around $70 after the recovery diesel will be around $4.00.  There should be plenty of leeway to pay back the startup investment.  My concerns would be more that the project is scalable to millions of barrels.  Of course you could let your parnoid side kick in and suspect that the oil companies/Saudies will try to torpedo the project.
If bio-diesel kicks off big, my paranoid side only goes to concerns that the government might come around and require mandatory liposuction donations on a regular basis.


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-04-10 12:31:46 8218
source: energy news
... algae produce 100 times more oil per acre than traditional food oilseed crops.
...
Other benefits listed by the United Biorefineries Corporation are that algae can reproduce themselves and their oil every six hours, algae eat CO2 and produce oxygen, algae do not compete with food crops for either agricultural land or fresh water, and the oil byproduct is a highly nutritious, protein- rich food.
It's always easy to criticize a new technology.  What's more difficult is to bet on a winning  technology for the future.  I'm betting that some kind of biological organism which grows rapidly and digests our waste can become our primary energy source replacing fossil fuels.  When i have more time i might summarize what's currently out there.
Just want to see the numbers, I am not criticizing it (except that it burns stuff!)
I will ask the same question for any new energy source, especially if it wants to bypass the normal business market & take taxpayer subsidies to develop. I don't think I want to consider a Soylent Green development project, though - "digests our waste" & "protein rich food" prolly shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.

Seth says
Here is another project that gives, perhaps over optimistic, projections ...
source: Russell Industries to Build Bio Algae Farm
a one acre, horizontal photo Bio reactor style Algae Farm can yield 50,000 gallons of Bio Feedstock compared to 700 gallons using Corn or Soy, but when set up using a vertical system it could yield 5 times as much or 250,000 gallons a year at the going rate of $2.00 per gallon.
So we have at least some rough over estimates of land usage:  assuming that we import about 25,000,000 barrels a year, and can produce 250,000 gallons per acre, then we would need only 4,032  acres.  We could put it all it in the state of Oklahoma and loose it.  Note that, according to this, if we used corn we would need 1,440,000 acres.  Now i doubt that those figures would hold up in the final analysis, but they do not rule out the proposition.

I put algae on my Google news watch list.  If anything really interesting comes by i'll report it.

Mark de LA says
Here is a visual from Wikipedia for an Acre overlayed on a football field
 I present it here to visualize it in an urban area.  The estimate at $2 per gal probably does not include the cost of the equipment & startup etc., prolly just operating equipment. 

Mark de LA says
   (25000000 * 42)/250000 = 4200 acres or 5x that much depending on your method. I suspect that the $2.00 per gallon is low & excludes a lot of details left out of the equation.
 
   Here is a 2008 technical analysis of the algae->biodiesel equation. It leaves out the engineering & the business side of the equation. Here is their estimate on max production:
But, on one of the conclusion pages they say 50-90% of the inefficiencies can be attributed to biological limits to the efficiency at which sunlight can be used. So if the vertical method increases that by 5 times then that is some corroboration. They do analyze the pond versus the concentrator method (probably your vertical one). They also list other byproducts besides oil from the algae including pharmaceuticals, pigments, etc.; phototobioreactor provides services –nutrient removal, water purification, etc.;Petroleum fuel additives; Electricity generation from otherwise wasted infrared energy.


Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-14 10:41:21 8218
MR 2009-07-14 10:24:10 8218
seth 2009-07-14 10:06:49 8218
MR 2009-07-14 09:43:14 8218
You need to know that fuel cells run on all kinds of fuels including hydrocarbons - not just hydrogen. I would like to have one that ran off my septic tank.

I know.  But the problem with fuel cells is the same reason they are so attractive, they generate the energy on the spot.  The problem being that limits the technology to what can be contained in a small portable enclosure.  But the fuel cell scheme i liked the best was the one where you just pee in the gas tank.
Who said it had to be portable? It only needs to supply a neighborhood of maybe 2-300 houses (maybe scale up to 1000) or the size that powers a surburban development or pre-existing neighborhood.  Electric vehicles can be charged overnight.
good luck with p-power!
Thing is what's the difference between a fuel-cell and a reactor?  Synthetic Genomics found a way to trick algae into generating copious amounts of bio diesel in a reactor, does that make their reactor a fuel-cell?
You get power from a fuel cell.  You get oil from your so-called reactor. I have a bit of a problem with the term reactor since that has a specific meaning in nuclear power.

Seth says
It's interesting that Exxon is investing $600 million in the algae proposition and believes that it is the best candadite to scale to a transportation fuel ...
source: NYT

[an interesting article to read, gives you a view into what is happening with algae today]

According to Exxon, algae could yield more than 2,000 gallons of fuel per acre of production each year, compared with 650 gallons for palm trees and 450 gallons for sugar canes. Corn yields just 250 gallons per acre a year.

Exxon’s partnership with Synthetic Genomics is also a vote of confidence in the work of Dr. Venter, a maverick scientist best known for decoding the human genome in the 1990s. In recent years, he has focused his attention on a search for micro-organisms that could be turned into fuel.

“Algae is the ultimate biological system using sunlight to capture and convert carbon dioxide into fuel,” Dr. Venter said.
... Did their stock holders and/or the government push them into it? After all once their chief executive "mocked alternative energy by referring to ethanol as moonshine".  In the end the consideration seems to be primarily the scale, even though many still complain that algae production will not scale. 

Mark de LA says
I wonder if this scheme will have the same problem as T Boone Pickens' windmills. Algae require a source of H2O.  I still tend to dislike an "alternative" energy that requires burning stuff. OTOH, we can't get rid of oil & coal completely as these are used to manufacture plastics & other parts of industry. I think the ultimate solution is neighborhood fuel cells.
Now a fuelcell that runs on algae oil would be real interesting.

Seth says
I will bet that this research at Arazona State University bears directly on the trick that Synthetic Genomics came up with ...
source: ABC15.com
The key is to take the algae cells and remove its nutrients. Once those are pulled out, the algae will start producing oil at a rapid pace.

“The algae that we are working with, can for example, double their oil content in 24 to 48 hours, so by manipulating them, we can double our field of oil from the algae,” said Sommerfeld.
...

Seth says
source: MR repeats his concerns above
Algae require a source of H2O.  I still tend to dislike an "alternative" energy that requires burning stuff.
I dont think that H2O is a problem, since not only can the plants be located near or in sufficient sources of water, but the process can also recycle the water it uses.  But before the scheme is rejected for such reasons, first we need to see a practical piolet plant operating that can scale to what is needed.  As to burning stuff, you need to look at the whole life cycle before emoting about the burning.  The traditional thinking goes that the CO2 released during burning is pretty much equal to what was bound during production.  Not so with coal or oil with takes CO2 out of the ground and releases it into the athmosphere.  Fuel cells that run on hydorgen need energy to separate out the hydrogen, so that is not a solution, it is just a movement of the problem.  A fuel cell run on algae is a scifi story that needs to be written, i'm looking forward to reading it.  The question remains what will be the preferred transportation fuel of the future.  Now we learn that Exxon has apparently made the same call, as have I.

Mark de LA says
You need to know that fuel cells run on all kinds of fuels including hydrocarbons - not just hydrogen. I would like to have one that ran off my septic tank.


Mark de LA says
T. Boondoggle's infrastructure problem is also a problem for H2O since transportation of commodities cost money.  There are vast parts of the country that are farther away from water than you are - mostly inland. That's why I like neighborhood fuel cells. Now most people who live far from water have problems because of that anyway & are probably a minority. If you don't have to pump your electricity from a grid then you are one-up in the scale of adaptability & self-sufficiency. See also recent stuff on fuel cells here.

Mark de LA says
seth 2009-07-14 10:06:49 8218
MR 2009-07-14 09:43:14 8218
You need to know that fuel cells run on all kinds of fuels including hydrocarbons - not just hydrogen. I would like to have one that ran off my septic tank.

I know.  But the problem with fuel cells is the same reason they are so attractive, they generate the energy on the spot.  The problem being that limits the technology to what can be contained in a small portable enclosure.  But the fuel cell scheme i liked the best was the one where you just pee in the gas tank.
Who said it had to be portable? It only needs to supply a neighborhood of maybe 2-300 houses (maybe scale up to 1000) or the size that powers a surburban development or pre-existing neighborhood.  Electric vehicles can be charged overnight.
good luck with p-power!

Seth says
MR 2009-07-14 10:24:10 8218
seth 2009-07-14 10:06:49 8218
MR 2009-07-14 09:43:14 8218
You need to know that fuel cells run on all kinds of fuels including hydrocarbons - not just hydrogen. I would like to have one that ran off my septic tank.

I know.  But the problem with fuel cells is the same reason they are so attractive, they generate the energy on the spot.  The problem being that limits the technology to what can be contained in a small portable enclosure.  But the fuel cell scheme i liked the best was the one where you just pee in the gas tank.
Who said it had to be portable? It only needs to supply a neighborhood of maybe 2-300 houses (maybe scale up to 1000) or the size that powers a surburban development or pre-existing neighborhood.  Electric vehicles can be charged overnight.
good luck with p-power!
Thing is what's the difference between a fuel-cell and a reactor?  Synthetic Genomics found a way to trick algae into generating copious amounts of bio diesel in a reactor, does that make their reactor a fuel-cell?

Mark de LA says
In Technology Review - A Biofuel Process to Replace all Fossil Fuels says
OTOH, there is a lot of competition - see the end of the article on page 2.
Algae-based biofuels come closest to Joule's technology, with potential yields of 2,000 to 6,000 gallons per acre; yet even so, the new process would represent an order of magnitude improvement. What's more, for the best current algae fuels technologies to be competitive with fossil fuels, crude oil would have to cost over $800 a barrel says Philip Pienkos, a researcher at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, CO. Joule claims that its process will be competitive with crude oil at $50 a barrel. In recent weeks, oil has sold for $60 to $70 a barrel.


Seth says
Well Joule Biotechnologiess process seems ideal ... it can utilize the unwanted CO2 from other processes and creates the fuel directly.  Not only will they be able to sell carbon offsets, but they can also sell fuel.  Sounds really good, almost too good.  Apparently they are raising money as fast as they can since they allegedly have demonstrated the process in a labratory.  Maybe soon they will be able to afford a website. 

Seth says
Ok, mea culpa, i found Joule Biotechnologie's website thanks to fastcompany.  Here is the best desciption of their status that i could find ...
source: fastcompany
According to Bill Sims, the President and CEO of Joule, the SolarConverter process isn't just an idea hatched in a lab last month. "We have been at this for nearly 2 years. We've proven the process in the lab and have a lab-scale facility running outside. We expect to have a pilot plant in 2010, he explained. "From there, I think we can move to commercial facilities as early as 2011 or 2012."

So far, Joule has raised less than $50 million from Flagship Ventures and other investors. The company has also applied for a $10 million research and construction grant. Whether Joule's technology can successfully be scaled up remains to be seen, but if it can, the company could overpower biofuel competitors like Amyris, Mascoma, LS9, and Sapphire Energy.
... still color me skeptical.

Mark de LA says
Yep, me to on the skepticism.  The detail on their photobioreactor are vague or non-existent.
But, there is abundant sketches in a google photobioreactor search.

Seth says
MR 2009-07-30 15:14:14 8218
Yep, me to on the skepticism.  The detail on their photobioreactor are vague or non-existent.
But, there is abundant sketches in a google photobioreactor search.
I think "photobiorecto" is a generic term, not specific to this devise.  If i was totally curious, I would make a patent search to see if there are any recent pantents registered to Bill Sims or Joule Biotechnologie  Inc.

Mark de LA says
M 2010-07-29 06:26:33 8218
uri http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727704.700-biodiesel-from-algae-may-not-be-as-green-as-it-seems.html - (maybe not so green).  The input-output of the energy system as a whole should always be calculated.   Like a move to electric-battery cars should calculate the energy footprint of making the batteries as well as generating the electricity to charge the car.



Mark de LA says
& you can ask where the Tesla went since Obama got involved:
source: ... Fiscker Automotive, a darling of the Obama Administration's push for green energy and electric cars has hired the powerful Chicago-based Kirkland Ellis law firm to explore a potential bankruptcy filing, according to reports. The car company, which received a federal $529 million loan guarantee in 2009, furloughed 200 US workers at the end of March to conserve cash. Its bankruptcy would be the latest high-profile failure of Obama's "green energy" loan program. 
...


Mark de LA says

source: ... “Rather than global warming at a rate of 1 F per decade, records of past natural cycles indicate there may be global cooling for the first few decades of the 21st century to about 2030,” said Easterbrook, speaking on a scientific panel discussion with other climatologists. This, he says, will likely be followed by “global warming from about 2030 to 2060,” which will then be followed by another cooling spell from 2060 to 2090
... & from the UN:
source: ...

The bitter winter afflicting much of the Northern Hemisphere is only the start of a global trend towards cooler weather that is likely to last for 20 or 30 years, say some of the world’s most eminent climate scientists.

Their predictions – based on an analysis of natural cycles in water temperatures in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans – challenge some of the global warming orthodoxy’s most deeply cherished beliefs, such as the claim that the North Pole will be free of ice in
summer by 2013.

According to the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre in Colorado, Arctic summer sea ice has increased by 409,000 square miles, or 26 per cent, since 2007 – and even the most committed global warming activists do not dispute this.

...
Maybe nobody can afford to drive anymore! All those factories are in china polluting their atmosphere & ours .... another Obama success story!



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