Shame on Obama or not?

About: Obama's Actual Mailer




Well ... is this true or not ?

Clinton's brochure about her health insurance plan does say that "Individuals: will be responsible for getting and keeping insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible"  but it also says "This credit will ensure that securing quality health care is never a crushing burden for any working family. This guarantee will be achieved through a premium affordability tax credit that ensures that health premiums never rise above a certain percentage of family income".   In other words the government, not the individual, will make the determination if the premiums are affordable. 

My judgement is that Obama's claim that "... forcing those who cannot afford health insurance to buy it through mandates ..." is not a twist of the truth.  Clinton can argue that the government can determine more objectively than the individual when the premium is affordable.  But i doubt that many Americans will easily grant that the government should have the power to choose for the individual what is affordable and even what they should purchase ... be it health care or bon bons. 

 No shame on Obama here.

This purpose of this node is to determine the truth of the single proposition:
source: from Obama's mailer
Hillary's health care plan forces everyone to buy insurance, even if you can't afford it ... and you pay a penalty if you don't.
Each clause of that must be true for the proposition to be true:
  • "forces everyone to buy insurance" - true ... that is the mandate ... according to HRC: "Individuals: will be responsible for getting and keeping insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible"
  • "even if they can't afford it" - This is the wiggel room.  Apparently the government will determine what the individual can afford - not the individual.  I say this clause is true.
  • "and you pay a penalty if you don't" - For me this is common sense.  There must be consequences if your don't sign up - otherwise her plan pretty much defaults to Obama's.  I say this clause is true.
So my determination is that Obama should not be ashamed of sending out this mailer because it did not misrepresent Hillary's position.  Perhaps they will delve into this in the debate tonight on MSNBC at 6PM PST.

Tags

  1. proposition node
  2. health care
  3. hillary
  4. obama
  5. item 9335

Comments


Mark de LA says
One might lust after Hillary's paper or campaign propaganda for the details of her plan rather than assert "my judgement" is otherwise!

IMHO, national healthcare will destroy the US healtcare system. Higher taxes & long waits for doctors as far as the eye can see will be the results. Don't vote liberal unless you like the aforementioned ideas.

Seth says
M 2008-02-25 11:15:24 9379
One might lust after Hillary's paper or campaign propaganda for the details of her plan rather than assert "my judgement" is otherwise!
I guess you missed that i actually quoted (and hyperlinked to) Hillary's campaign proganda and based my judgement on that.  

Remember, what we're determining here is the truth of the proposition that Obama misrepresented Clinton's words and hense should be ashamed.  We are not arguing which health plan is best.  Thing is, Clinton has not really  specified how she would enforce her mandate.   That gives her a bit of wiggel room so this proposition is not going to be a black or white determination.  But the experts, even hers, say that there must be some kind of force involved.  To me that makes: "... forces those who cannot afford health insurance to buy it through mandates ..." a true predicate ... hense Obama's flyer was factually true. 

Yesterday i was going around saying that Obama should apologize for this flyer and put it behind him.  I have misrepresenting facts up there as the cardinal political sin.   But now after a brief study,  i don't see any misrepresentation in this particular flyer.   Clinton gets no points from me on this one.

Mark de LA says
seth 2008-02-26 10:15:24 9379
M 2008-02-25 16:38:19 9379
Well, what Hillary & Obama as well are likely to do is to have the government pay for all health care for those below the poverty line & then tax those above it for the cost! IOW, they will require those below to register for the giveaway.

Well we're lapsing into a general discussion of health care reform.  Perhaps someone will open a node to delve into that and find a better truth.
Yep, & I may do that later in the year when my interest heats up from "none of the above" ! What has not been acknowledged here is that Obama did what Seth doesn't like in my arguments in that he went beyond what Hillary's words said on the subject & interpreted the effects & results.  This is what modern politics is. Don't look for the truth in the domain of politics.


Seth says
M 2008-02-25 16:38:19 9379
Well, what Hillary & Obama as well are likely to do is to have the government pay for all health care for those below the poverty line & then tax those above it for the cost! IOW, they will require those below to register for the giveaway.

Well we're lapsing into a general discussion of health care reform.  Perhaps someone will open a node to delve into that and find a better truth.

Seth says
M 2008-02-25 14:18:22 9379
seth 2008-02-25 12:56:51 9379
M 2008-02-25 12:12:09 9379
I looked at your link to her health care pdf & found nothing upon first scan that says she would be "... forcing those who cannot afford health insurance to buy it through mandates ..." can you?  If not then the shame persists!
Her pdf says "Individuals: will be responsible for getting and keeping insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible".  Such a mandate must be enforced for it to work.  According to Obama's words ..
source: msnbc
"When she says she

Seth says
M 2008-02-25 14:06:02 9379
seth 2008-02-25 13:12:07 9379
M 2008-02-25 12:26:27 9379
Obviously something is wrong with your bold italic settings that propagates it to all comments!
Not so obvious to me.  If you don't leave a balanced </b> or a </i> when you use those features, then it will run into the next comment.  That is the way html works, nothing that i can do about it.  If you have the stomac for it you can click View Source and delve into exactly which end tag is missing.  But when i find that my end tags have gotten hopelessly confused, i go back to the original and start over.
did you check your item - I didn't use bold.
Ok i found a mismatched </div> and mismatched style with i deleted.  Strange it didn't show up in Firefox but did show up in IE. 

Seth says
M 2008-02-27 10:30:55 9379
What did you get out of the debate last night on the subject of this item ?
The NYT was nice enough to give us a transcript ... all the material about Health care is in the first 16 minutes.  I found no new information emerging that i did not already cover in this item. The flyer says "... forcing those who cannot afford health insurance to buy it through mandates ..." and that is factually true.  Hillary's rebuttal is ... "if everyone's not in the system we will continue to let the insurance companies do what's called cherry picking -- pick those who get insurance and leave others out."  She does not deny the forced mandate. 

Her plan may even be the best solution ... i don't know, that is grist for a different item.  But as far as i can tell, this flyer did not substantually twist her proposal.  That remains my finding.

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