Obama versus the Wright

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

Comments

Mark de LA says

Those who were already blind, & swooning for Obama will be swooning still. Those who were suspicious of this liberal, racist will understand that this is liberalism at it's finest - the individual no longer responsible for his own action - racism traced all the way back to slavery; pandering to collective guilt 140+ years after the civil war. Welcome to the racial candidate! Invest now in the race industry it will be alive & thriving in 2009 if he is elected. Expect 4-8 years of the race conversation. He had his chance & he muffed it!

Otherwise I say

NO!bama

Mark de LA says

Actually, I am predicting that Obama could probably turn this controversy into a Sister Souljah moment if he's any good. See the Wikipedia on that.

Seth says

Well he nailed it

.
M, in particular, should like this quote:

source: full transcript of Obamas address
It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.

In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand -- that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

I recorded Obama's address in it's entirety amoungst miscellaneous domestic sounds and put it in the tagtalking pool here.

Mark de LA says

This is your spokesman on liberalism:

Mark de LA says

Yep! At this point it is incredible how he can be a member of the church which hosted this racist preacher Jeremiah Wright for 20 years & contribute 20K to that church & not know what Wright was all about. I would love to see if Wright & Obama would publicly subscribe to the terms in 714 about what racism is. The Church of Christ is the same church that Larry D. used to belong to. I heard them preach in both Missouri & Venice, California & none of the kind of stuff that Wright says did I hear. I think that Wright dishonors that church.

This is in re to the missplaced comment on 714. Please keep that item free of politics & polemics.

Mark de LA says
I think Obama is in a real bind here. Either he is a phony church goer who makes his own attendance for show & misses the sermons of Wright or he is probably lying about not knowing.

Mark de LA says

Mark de LA says

Minus the charm, here is the speech in text. I watched it live. You need to use your critical faculties by reading (if you can)!

Mark de LA says

Mo' Info' --> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120579535818243439.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

Mark de LA says

Comment below moved to maintain the purity of 714!

source: ... seth 2008-03-17 12:17:32 714

Me thinks Barack's speech tomorrow is going to be very interesting. I had said that he should give a speech in response to the recent attacks ... and now it appears that he will. Let's hope it will be a good one and will turn the tide.

...

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-03-19 04:38:58 9526

What i find interesting - and telling - is that the M(ark)s and the Limbaughs of this country do not even recognize an authentic American when they hear one. In this speech Obama has eloquently put to bed the fears of the black community that he is not black enough - he will win votes with them. At the same time, while standing above the anger that infects both sides of the racial divide, he has explained it. As such he has proven that he is a statesman. It is time for us to turn him loose on the real problems which befall our policy in the world - Iraq and Iran. He can be my spokesman ... anytime.

What I find interesting - and telling - is that the Seth's and the Jeremiah Wright's (& Louis Farrakhan's) of this country won't even admit to being phony liberals (& hyphenated-Americans) when they hear one of their own; One who promises & says anything his audience wants to hear to ascend to power. One who does a fine job of delivering yet another Rorschach speech where everybody hears what they want to hear. He explained nothing on the racial divide except that he can accuse his own grandmother of being a bigot. Embarrassed by his own guilt of association with a racist preacher he was afraid to confront him when it happened (or he agreed with it) until his campaign faltered by those who expose the truth. If he can't even confront his own preacher how will he ever tackle the religious zealots in Iran & the Middle East. He won't be my spokesman anytime! You (Seth) certainly proved that you don't understand 714 nor the stuff in the tagroom for the Golden Rule. Obama excused his own guilt of association by assigning racist guilt to everyone else. That's not courage or statesmanlike, that's the usual "everybody does it" bullshit.

Mark de LA says

This is a fascinating YouTube counter to the rev Wright's racism. This is not condoned nor endorsed by me & is still counter to 714, but Seth, if you are open-minded see if you can watch it all the way through.

Mark de LA says

Howard Kurtz did a decent job from a media perspective of analysis on Obama's speech the other day.

What occurred for me as I read it was the question "Why Did Obama not disown race entirely in politics" i.e. declare for all time that the human race is the only one that matters. Instead of saying

source: (Obama) "I could no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I could no more disown him than I can disown my white grandmother . . . who once confessed her fear of black men who pass her by on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."

... he could have said

source: (me)
I disown race, not my race but all race, except the human race! No longer shall race be an excuse, cause celebre or motivation for any kind of positive or negative human behavior! No longer will we separate into political groups by race expecting special benefits or condemnations by any other race than the human race! I declare the racial divide gone forever!

Unfortunately, for him & you & me, the Democrat party lives to dispense government largesse (read yours & my tax dollar$) to individual groups as the basis of power in an ever expanding government. To disown race would mean to disown part of their power base - not happening in the near future!

Seth says
Actually, Mark, one cannot disown their race - it is part of their experience, part of their history. That would be like asking you to disown your seventh birthday, or your first kiss, or the beating up you got from a black boy at John Adams Junior High School. Disowning experience is not possible short of lobotomy. To get real, what we can do is to "move beyond some of our old racial wounds" ... and that is what Obama said in his speech, and that is what Obama has done in his life and career. Racism cannot be wished away with idealized concepts and empty words that do nothing to get us from here to there.

Buried in this address is a new paradigm - one that, if heeded, should cut both ways. Condemn, repudiate, reject and refute someone's careless or stupid words; but accept the reality of their life and times. No longer is it acceptable to obliterate a person's life work and end their career by taking their outbursts out of context. This new paradigm should apply equally to an Imus or a Kramer. It should pretty much put Al Sharpton out of business. It is time for America to grow up about race, not to sweep it under the covers with empty idealizations.

Mark de LA says

source: (me, above) I disown race, not my race but all race, except the human race!

... you missed the point it's morphologically equivalent to disowning racism!

There's something magic in a bold declaration. It doesn't necessarily make what's said true, but it does refocus your attention & consciousness. What does make it true is the continued & continuous personal congruency with your declaration - unwaveringly, unswerving & in the face of forces dragging you back into the old ways of being. If you are a leader of a group you have to correct your group every time it's necessary. It works every time it is tried.

P.S. (hint ... it's about saying what you are going to do & then doing what you say.)

mlk & jfk says

JFK & MLK were good at this technique & achieved tangible results not just ideals. Obama is no MLK.

Mark de LA says

Here is an article by Victor Davis Hansen which fairly well expresses what I had hoped to hear when I mentioned Obama had a chance for a sister Souljah moment:

source:

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-04-26 08:54:59 9526

M 2008-03-17 13:09:56 9526

Yep! At this point it is incredible how he can be a member of the church which hosted this racist preacher Jeremiah Wright ...

What is incredible is that you listen to some sound bytes projected at you from a opposing camp and just accept the assumptions that they want you to accept ... watch Bill Moyers interview and form your own opinion.

I can entertain no context for which screaming at the top of his lungs, Jeremiah Wright screaming "God Damn America" is acceptable! That would not even be acceptable were he being stabbed through the heart while taking a shit by a white supremacist. That just crisps up Wright's character in a nutshell. I refer you to 8802 about polishing a turd.

This interview by a renowned liberal is just another attempt to polish up Obama's questionable associations for his nomination. I recorded the whole thing on the DVR & may watch it later if I need the reference or my blood pressure should droop.

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-04-26 09:26:51 9526

choy 2008-04-26 09:14:44 9526

seth 2008-04-26 08:54:59 9526

M 2008-03-17 13:09:56 9526

Yep! At this point it is incredible how he can be a member of the church which hosted this racist preacher Jeremiah Wright ...

I can entertain no context for which screaming at the top of his lungs, Jeremiah Wright screaming "God Damn America" is acceptable!

Well if you listen to the entire section of that sermon which is in the interview, you may just find one.

That's where the lefties have got you by the 'nads. Moral relativism is just a wishy-washy lazy way of thinking that can justify even a lie to be the truth in some context. If you are a moral relativist you might as well say nothing at all because anything else other than what you say will also be true!

Mark de LA says

Lately, Seth about all your arguments break down into saying the exact opposite of what I have just said. It's getting boring. I hold that America is the greatest country on Earth including her flaws. She is one of the few that actually works on her flaws & makes progress doing so. Just to make it personal, suppose I cursed something that you love for example "God Damn Obama"!!

How does it feel. Can you find a context in which you can accept that damnation?

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-04-28 08:10:20 9526

So, after listening to the whole sermon, what is your opinion of Wright's condemnation?

Well, I haven't done that yet, but apparently Wright on Matthew's program seems to be throwing Obama under the bus this morning ... more to come! (He's just another politician)

Caution! Partisan on board!

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-04-26 11:18:32 9526

America is great and i love her too. But she has her flaws and does some damnable things in the world. Me thinks a study of the tradition of damming and what it means outside of your experiences of using the word as a curse might help you understand this better. But if your mind is already closed on the matter, then, please, don't waste any more of my time.

Wright damned the country, not some of the people in it who did things he didn't like. The history of damning includes the phrases "GO TO HELL" as well- is that the temperament you are applauding?

Seth says

M 2008-04-26 09:51:23 9526

seth 2008-04-26 09:26:51 9526

choy 2008-04-26 09:14:44 9526

seth 2008-04-26 08:54:59 9526

M 2008-03-17 13:09:56 9526

Yep! At this point it is incredible how he can be a member of the church which hosted this racist preacher Jeremiah Wright ...

I can entertain no context for which screaming at the top of his lungs, Jeremiah Wright screaming "God Damn America" is acceptable!

Well if you listen to the entire section of that sermon which is in the interview, you may just find one.

Of coarse moral relativism is not just "a way of justifying evan a lie to be the truth in some context". That is just your twisted view of it. But the opposite of moral relativism is moral absolutism. In this case you are to have me believe that there is no context in which saying God Damm America is morally defensible. Well the only context that i can think of where that would be the case is jingoism ... and if that is all you are saying here, then you got me: I can unapologetically say that I am not now, nor have i ever been a jingoist.

But please, Mark, listen to the sermon in context and then such a discussion will have more value for me.

Mark de LA says

As a matter of fact Wright calls himself a "Christian" preacher (reverend?) & yet takes the name of the Lord in vain ("God damn America") in violation of Exodus 20,7

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

some reverend.

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-04-26 11:43:08 9526

M 2008-04-26 11:23:52 9526

seth 2008-04-26 11:18:32 9526

Wright damned the country, not some of the people in it who did things he didn't like. The history of damning includes the phrases "GO TO HELL" as well- is that the temperament you are applauding?

Shouting "GO TO HELL" is just a straight forward curse. Wright did not damm the country, he dammed certain things that were done by the country. It was specific ...

You are being charitable. "God Damn America" is very specific. Had he been damning racists he should have said "God Damn the Racists!" . If he had been damning poverty, he should have said "God Damn the race-baiting poverty pimps!".

"Imagine there is no country ...." J.L. There is no government only people, no country only land & people. But,when you refer to America, you refer to it all.

Seth says
Well too bad because that pretty disqualifies everything you might say about it. Trust me on this, the press has chopped all of his meaning out of what he said - it's a crying shame.

Mark de LA says

Let us first acknowledge that this preacher is a racist who hates America and will bring racism to attention of Americans with negative notoriety the same way that Jeffrey Dahmer brought cannibalism to the attention of Americans. Blacks are about 12%(getting smaller) of the population. The Democrat party first voted against the Civil Rights Act. This is a case of anger generating anger generating anger. BTW, I thought we already handled the fact that both of us are partisans but on different sides of the issues (don't even pretend to be neutral.)

Mark de LA says

... & now we know why Obama waited > 1.5 months to kick the reverend? Wright under the bus instead of having a Sister Souljah Moment. Apparently he was polling to find out what effects that would have on his campaign. Some model for leadership! Typical of liberals though: few principles just populism.

Seth says

M 2008-04-30 10:04:46 9526

No, Mark, we know no such thing. There is no evidence that Obama was conducting that push poll; there is no evidance that he saw the results of that pool; and there is no evidence that if he did see the results that they influenced his actions. Timing and common sense tells us that just responded to the spectacle of Wright's performance at the press club. This is the second time in as many days that you have repeated concocted memes and then dissed someone based upon the concoctions being true. Do you really think that kind of disengenuousness is useful in the political process?

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-04-30 11:15:29 9526

M 2008-04-30 10:04:46 9526

Nope! What is your explanation for why he waited 6-weeks when he knew for 20 years what kind of a man Wright was?

Mark de LA says

Seth says

M 2008-04-30 11:29:16 9526

seth 2008-04-30 11:15:29 9526

M 2008-04-30 10:04:46 9526

Nope! What is your explanation for why he waited 6-weeks when he knew for 20 years what kind of a man Wright was?

Perhaps he overestimated the intelligence of white America and underestimated their intolerance. The history of the American black man is what it is ... his experiences are what they are ... events happen ... they cannot be disowned. I guess you had to be a black man comming to political awareness on the South side of Chicago during the 60's and early 70's to comprehend this ... remember black power, Rap Brown etc. What is astonishing is that Barack burned through all of that. In the early part of the campaign he presented almost like a white man. Lol ... perhaps that was why the American people found his so popular ... he was viewd as not black enough. Now they discover he is an authentic black man with an authentic black history ... and guess what, he came through it without a chip on his sholdier ... go listen to his kennote at the last Democratic national convention. But, no, that is not enough ... Hillary and McCain must defeat him at all costs ... not becauser they are racists, but because they want to be president. So how do you solve that problem: you find some black man who could not burn through all of that early 20th century racism ... someone who is still bitter. Then you smear that shit on Barack by dint of association. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Mark de LA says

Seth, that is the most racist pile of bullshit I have ever heard in my life from you. I guess it proves not only that you can't answer a question, but that you can't take the race out of the racist! Your own intolerance is beginning to bubble up. It is beyond a couplet.

"I know a way out of hell..." (see the movie Gandhi)

Reverse (in your mind) the races in this drama. Pretend that a candidate named MkKain belonged to a church that had a preacher with a KKK background. Suppose that that preacher continued to assert his bullshit. Suppose MkKain was dragged, kicking & screaming by the M$M to explain his connection with this preacher. What would that say about MkKain's character? Would you want MkKain as your president to be dealing with the serious matters of this country like foreign terrorists, dictators & wars if he dissembled about denouncing his preacher (6 weeks late?)

714 is the only way out of racism - reverse or otherwise. You can't pander to one race or the other for for votes & get there.

O - was not underprivileged, man, he went to Princeton as did his wife! Wake up! The US is ready for a change in ethnicity (or sex) of it's presidents, but probably not O.

Seth says

source: M above
I guess it proves not only that you can't answer a question, but that you can't take the race out of the racist!

And your response proves that you cannnot distinguish between awareness of race and racism. You can transcend the racial divide, but you cannot take race out of American history and culture.

Actually Obama himself has provided you with what should be a sufficiently PC answer to your question:

source: Interview on NBCs Today show - please listen to whole interview
"When the first snippets came out, I thought it was important to give him the benefit of the doubt because if I had wanted to be politically expedient I would have distanced myself and denounced him right away, right? That would have been the easy thing to do," said Obama. This week he denounced Wright's comments as "giving comfort to those who prey on hate."

While my answer was somewhat less PC, it also explained why this will never be enough (i reference you next response in advance). Now maybe you will explain to me why your faction is continueing to persue this guilt by association? Does Obama have those attitudes which Wright has expressed? If not, then what is the rational for your grinding?

Mark de LA says

P.S. Please read all of Luke VI for context.

Spoiler P says
Every politician who ends up in the middle of a scandal wants to put it behind him/her as fast as possible & "move on" to the future. It's far from over for H & far from over for O & will begin frantically for Mc when the Democrat party chooses someone. Get used to it, it's politicians as usual & the big leagues. Embrace it or get over it & watch the cartoon channel until the "news front" passes bye.

Mark de LA says

Seth: ... And your response proves that you cannnot distinguish between awareness of race and racism.

... Why do I need an awareness of race or racism when I have an acute awareness of humanity? Why do you have such a vested interest in racism ? Why does your candidate have such a vested interest in racism? The problem with O is that his behavior belies the words coming out of his mouth!

Seth says

source: M above
... why do I need awareness or race & racism when I have an acute awareness of humanity?

Short answer is that people and politicians need to be keenly aware of history, culture, and sociology. To wish away the racial divide in America is to deney reality. Obama has said that attitudes are improving and that Wright's views do not reflect those imporvements. Your 714 is a non-solution to the lingering race issue in America just because it denys history and current reality. It simply sets the distant point to which we all want top progress, but is gives us no practical way to get there.

Why do you have such a vested interest in racism ?

I don't know ... doesn't seem to ring a bell. Now why have you not stopped beating your grandmother?

Why does your candidate have such a vested interest in racism?

really? Did Barack bring all of this up? No, he hardly mentioned race before the opposition wiped it all over him. Obviously Obama whold have preferred that race not ever come up in this campaign, and as long as it did not, his popularity was soaring. <rwg dig> What orphus did you pull that one out of? </rwg>

The problem with O is that his behavior belies the words coming out of his mouth!

That is just an nonspecific insult with no justification.

Now maybe you will answer my questions: explain to me why your faction is continueing to persue this guilt by association? Does Obama actually have those attitudes which Wright has expressed? If not, then what is the rational for your grinding?

Mark de LA says

Your direct insulting words are just begging for a couplet. I am toying with closing this item & deleting all further comments because your comments are losing all rationality.

714 IS the solution whether you have the heart to recognize it or not. It is just your inability to hear it that belies your own racism. You do not have to resurrect all the history of racism to get beyond racism. Being something else is instant - no time or process is needed. It is your yes, buts that suggest that you still want some excuses & some advantages for one side or the other (see Luke VI again). As a matter of fact what resurrecting all the history does is solidify more racism - like anger begets anger & resentment begets resentment (see RWG if not convinced). Principles like 714 become reality & become instantiated by living in the conversations of people - reification. To dismiss them as mere ideals is to live without principles. The Democrat party apparently lives in demographics mostly. If O were to articulate at every point the principles in 714 and never waiver he could march triumphantly into Washington DC in a landslide. I don't believe that Americans want to watch 4-8 years of racism in their living rooms nightly. If O were actually to do that even I could vote for him in spite of the fact that what I oppose of his politics is his left-wing agenda. One note of caution: the first time he begins to pander - to one or the other halves of his ethnicity - he loses.

Seth says

source: M above
One note of caution: the first time he begins to pander - to one or the other halves of his ethnicity - he loses.

I agree. I do not expect that he will ever so "pander".

Mark de LA says

P.S. I am still for none of the above so I don't really have a faction. I am more libertarian than conservative & much more both of those than liberal (progressive for you if you can't step up and admit it). My faction (as you put it) on the current topic is 714 - step up & reaffirm it now & behave accordingly & we all will be as one - Namaste!

Seth says

M 2008-05-01 11:04:23 9526

P.S. I am still for none of the above so I don't really have a faction.

By your written actions here and elsewhere on fastblogit you are a member of the faction which is smering Wright's shit on Obama. You continue to criticize Barack because of his association with Wright and not because you can find any evidance that he holds those attitudes himself. That is the faction to which i refered and to which you belong.

[item 714] - step up & reaffirm

What is funny is that those of you faction who continue to grind the Wright affair ...

source: 714
I say that anyone who uses the distinctions of race to argue, judge, excuse, blame, criticize, politicize, incite, agitate, allocate, study, educate, etc. is a RACIST !

... are blaming and politicizeing based upon race. According to this you are being successful in your endevour ... too bad, that is a crying shame. It was not Obama who polorized the democratic party by race. Like your rwg this is a viscious circle and is not at all zen. The objective is to transcend that viscous blame cycle ... so when you can say something that does not perpuatuate blaming Barack for the sins of his balck pastor, then perhaps i can take your affirmations of 714 seriously.

P.S. you didn't answer any of my questions, but i answered all of yous which could have had answers.

Mark de LA says

Well, I gave a shot at it .... this item is CLOSED!

Any further comments on this item will be summarily deleted without comment or reading!

Obama versus the Wright

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